Ep.198 Narcissism Isn’t Always Obvious: How to Recognize It and Take Your Life Back

Before you assume this episode isn’t for you—stick with me.

Because narcissistic relationships don’t always look toxic on the surface. They often start off feeling too good to be true… and that’s exactly the problem.

In this episode, I sit down with Melissa Rymer of the Victim to Warrior Method to break down what these relationships actually look like in real life—beyond the buzzwords.

We talk about:

• Why narcissistic relationships often start like a fairy tale—and why that’s a red flag
• The subtle signs: gaslighting, passive-aggressive comments, and slowly losing your confidence
• The difference between someone who’s difficult… and someone who is truly a narcissist
• Why strong, capable women are often the ones who get pulled in 
• What happens to your health—sleep, anxiety, burnout—when you stay too long
• How to set boundaries (with a spouse, parent, or even a friend)
• Why you can’t “fix” the relationship—and what actually moves you forward

Melissa also shares her personal story of recognizing the pattern, navigating a difficult exit, and rebuilding her life—along with practical steps if you’re starting to question your own situation.

If you’ve ever felt like something is off but couldn’t quite explain it… this conversation will put words to it.

And if this isn’t you, there’s a good chance you know someone who needs to hear it.

You can find Melissa Rymer at:

https://bio.victimtowarriormethod.com/home
https://www.instagram.com/v2w_victimtowarrior/

YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@v2wvictimtowarrior

Are they a narcissist? Take the quiz: https://bio.victimtowarriormethod.com/are-they-a-narcissist

_________________________________________
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https://elliemd.com/michelefolan - Create a free account to view all products.

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Like to connect? Email me at askingforafriendpodcast1@gmail.com 

Transcripts are created with AI and may not be perfectly accurate.

Disclaimer: This podcast is for general informational purposes only and does not constitute the practice of medicine, nursing, or other professional healthcare services. It is not a substitute for professional medical advice, diagnosis, or treatment. Always seek the advice of your qualified healthcare provider with any questions regarding a medical condition.

Transcript

Medical Disclaimer And Peptides Sponsor

Michele Folan 0:00

The information shared on this podcast is for educational purposes only and should not be considered medical advice. Please consult a qualified healthcare professional regarding your individual health needs. Let's talk about peptides because they're not just GLP ones. Your body actually makes peptides naturally. They're messengers that help regulate things like fat metabolism, muscle growth, skin health, recovery, and energy. But here's the truth: just like hormones, collagen, and muscle, peptide production declines as we age, especially postmenopause. So if you're feeling stuck, belly fat that won't budge, slower recovery, low energy, or skin that just isn't bouncing back like it used to, this might be a missing piece. And no, this isn't about shortcuts. Lifestyle still comes first. Strength training, protein, sleep, stress management, always. But peptides can be a smart layer on top of that foundation. Not interested in a GLP1? Totally fine. There are other options that support fat metabolism, recovery, cognitive function, and healthy aging. The key is quality and working with a trusted medical provider. That's why I've partnered with EllieMD to bring you clinically guided, personalized peptide options that actually make sense for midlife women. And if you're curious, check the link in the show notes and learn what might be right for you. Health, wellness, fitness, and everything in between. We're removing the taboo from what really matters in midlife. I'm your host, Michele Folan, and this is Asking for a Friend. Before you assume this episode isn't for you, stick with me. Because narcissistic relationships don't always look the way you think they do. They're not always loud, dramatic, or obvious. Sometimes they're subtle, confusing, quietly exhausting. They can show up in marriages, families, friendships, even at work. And the people in them, they're not weak. They're not naive. They're often strong, capable, high functioning, and slowly losing themselves. Maybe you found yourself constantly second guessing your reality, walking on eggshells, explaining away behavior that doesn't quite sit right. Or maybe this isn't your story, but you're thinking of someone right now who needs to hear this. Today we're breaking down what narcissistic relationships actually look like, why they're so hard to recognize when you're in them, and what it takes to reclaim your identity and your life. So take a breath, take stock, and really listen. Because there is another side to this, and it's stronger, clearer, and more free than you might think. Melissa Reimer, welcome to Asking for a Friend.

Melissa Rymer 3:00

Oh, thank you so much, Michele. I am so happy to be here. And man, you nailed it.

Michele Folan 3:06

You did. Well, you know, I shared with you that I know people that are in narcissistic relationships. And I am interested in this topic because I don't think people always recognize the signs. And this will help clear a lot of that up. And you work with people, Melissa, coming out of narcissistic relationships. What does that actually look like in real life?

Confidence Erodes Through Slow Control

Melissa Rymer 3:35

Well, having gone through it and survived it, many people, like you just said, don't even realize that's what they're going through. They don't realize they're dealing with a narcissist because the relationship starts out beautiful. It starts out like a fairy tale. And it's all by design because a narcissist does not randomly choose a victim. They choose someone that can bring something into their life. And I don't mean just a great partnership. I mean it could be money, it could be image, it could be uh influence, it could be career advancement. It has to do with something this person has that the narcissist wants and they will gain from that. So when you're just starting, and it could be mostly relationship-driven, but it could be a boss, it could be an in-law, it could be somebody that one of your loved ones married. We deal with all of this, but the person starts out as a very, very perfect individual. They're they're charismatic, they're kind, they're generous, they pay attention to the victim in the beginning. That's when they listen. That's when you're so interesting to them. That's when you have all of these things in common. Everything you're like, wow, I must have met my soulmate. That is exactly what I felt. That's what I felt. And they will keep that what I call charade up because and it's the mask that they wear. It's the mask they wear for public, it's the mask they wear when they are courting you, no matter what that relationship is, because they want your guard down. They want you to trust them, they want you to be interested in what they're saying, and they want you to feel they're interested in what you say and what you do. And all of a sudden, you feel free. You feel like, wow, this person gets me. They understand. That is why people miss the red flags. Because why would someone purposely do this to someone else? That's the sad part of it, because they are purposely doing it to someone else. And it is to tear down um everything about yourself that you truly thought was strong and energetic, and that you really had it together. And the more you get involved with this person, and it generally leads to, you know, dating, engagement, marriage, potentially having a child. And that's when things start changing. That's when things start, things are just not quite right. They're, you know, there's some passive aggressive comments, they're, you know, kind of tearing you down. All of this makes you doubt your confidence. Or maybe you think, um, I'm imagining it, or maybe I'll try harder. Maybe I, you know, I want back what we had. I know with my own experience, things were just so amazing during that, you know, dating and engagement and the romance and all of this stuff. And then six months into the marriage, all of a sudden he's just not happy. He's upset, he's critical. So I started trying harder. I was working harder to, you know, make sure he was okay, what's going on? He must, you know, he's under stress. So the victim, unfortunately, I hate to say that, but that's that's what we become because we start absorbing this other person's change of behavior, the negative change of behavior. We start absorbing that and we start pulling more of ourself into them. So it so slowly starts draining our tank. I call them life vampires because they start sucking life out of you to make them happy. And because you love them, because you care about them, because you're trying to make it work, you're trying to figure it out, you start giving more of yourself. And that's where we start losing who we are and sacrificing who we are. And slowly you start giving up things that were very, very important to you, like working out, like, you know, if you had extra curricula, like I like to paint, I love to paint. It was like he would complain about the time I spent painting, that I seemed distracted, that you know, he really needed to talk to me. You know, could I just not spend that hour? Could I just not spend that half hour? Could I just not spend that five minutes? So slowly I'm like, you know, I'm just gonna give that up for now. So that's something that was important to me that I sacrificed.

Michele Folan 8:26

Yeah, and you start losing yourself. And that's yes, that's what happens. And I think this needs to be pointed out, even though this podcast is focused on women's health and wellness. Is there something that affects both men and women equally? I mean, is this something that you see often in both, or are there differences?

Melissa Rymer 8:48

Well, mostly um it mostly affects women because primarily men are narcissists. I mean, and not just because someone has narcissistic traits. I mean, there can be people that are egomaniacs, gregarious, loud, uh, self-centered. It doesn't necessarily make them a narcissist. Those are very annoying traits, and and it takes a very strong person to deal with them. But mostly men are narcissists. It is by statistics. There are women that are narcissists, narcissists. Most of the time they're covert, which is it equally as dangerous, but it's they're the victim. They're drama, they're um, they're always complaining, they're always looking for that extra attention. So you feel responsible for their happiness. So that's kind of the difference. And I do have men clients, but mostly women, it's like 95% women. But the the tear down of your confidence and your um resiliency is similar because even though it's a man, you know, uh men, they they like words of affirmation, you know, they like physical touch, they they're just they're wired, you know, they're wired differently. So when you start tearing down their confidence, then being a man, they start feeling bad about themselves, they start feeling unappreciated, it really starts affecting them as being the leader of the household. Women who are the pillars, they're the strong, they're the, you know, they take care of the kids, they keep all the pieces together. When they're juggling all these things, and you start tearing that down, it's like they're juggling more and more and more and more, and and they become smaller and smaller and smaller because everything around them becomes more important, more critical. And that's when they start their health, their nervous system, the anxiety, the insomnia, all of these negative health side effects that are, you know, they they come from long-term abuse. People don't see it because it's not like you wake up and you go, Wow, I wonder what happened from yesterday to today. That's not what it feels like. It's like, man, I'm exhausted. Gosh, okay, let me just see if I can work harder tomorrow. Slowly and gradually is what happens. And even if you say something, even if you go, you know what, this isn't work. This is this is something that's really upsetting me. Can we talk about it? That conversation becomes unbearable because they're like, you know, this is your issue. You know, it it you're the one that's insecure. It's not my fault you feel that way. It's not my fault you gain that extra five pounds. It's not my fault, you know, you're jealous of this person. And so then you're then all of a sudden the conversation that you thought was going to be an emotional, open conversation now becomes you're defending yourself about something that they did, they said, they're doing. And now all of a sudden you're you're taking back that blame and you're like, okay, well, I'm not gonna talk about it anymore. So you bury it. Yeah. And it festers.

Michele Folan 11:58

All right. So, and I think this needs to be asked. How do you know if you're married to a narcissist or you're in a relationship with a narcissist versus someone that just is sometimes a real asshole or a douchebag?

Melissa Rymer 12:13

Well, you know what? The reason that question came up so much when we when we first started our business three years ago, we came up with a questionnaire. It's actually free, and I will give it to you, the link. It's are they a narcissist? And there's 15 very pointed questions that have a scoring mechanism to them. And they're about how this person treats you. And the questions are are very interesting because they're not just, well, are they mean? Are they they're it's real life questions during situations and it's multiple choice. So once you go through the 15 questions, it will tally up your score. If it's 30 points and under, you've got somebody that's probably high maintenance, somebody that's got, you know, a big ego, they've got uh some annoying traits, but you probably can work through it because they're it sounds like that they actually might be willing to compromise somewhat. When you get over 30, 30 to around, you know, 50, and it goes all the way to 75, you have serious concerns with this person. This person is um gonna be very difficult to compromise, change, deal with, rationalize with. When you get over 50, mine actually rated a 72, um, and you get into that category, there's no way to deny they're a narcissist. And they will not change. They are actually doing things to purposely tear you down, to purposely destroy you, to purposely drain you, control you, intimidate you, isolate you. All of these questions relate to that. And that's the reason we did the questionnaire because people are like, I know something's wrong, I just don't know what it is. It's like, take the questionnaire, it's free.

Michele Folan 13:59

All right.

Melissa Rymer 14:00

So we'll yeah, we'll give that to you, anyone in your audience that wants it.

Michele Folan 14:02

So I did take the questionnaire yesterday. And did you? Yeah, I'm we're oh we're good. We're good. And okay, good, good, good, good. I mean, every husband's got their quirky issues and can be an ass sometimes, right? But or a baby, yeah, right. Yeah, a big baby. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Of course. But I think you know, getting back to your situation, what was that process like for you? Identifying the issue, losing emotionally, what you lost mentally, and then kind of how you came out on the other side.

Leaving Safely Without Revealing Plans

Melissa Rymer 14:38

Well, I was so desperate to try to figure out how to fix the problem because I I had no clue what a narcissist was. I mean, you know, 15 years ago. And it was very interesting because when I met him, he said he was a recovering alcoholic, that he did not drink. And I was like, okay, that's good, you know, because you know, he told me about things that he did when he drank. And so he started drinking after we got married. He relapsed because I was finding things like wine bottles in the hedge outside, you know, just random things. And I'm like, what in the world? And so, of course, he he said, I drove him to drink, you know, so then it was my fault that he was drinking again. But drinking brought on violence. So not only was he just he he has sociopathic tendencies too, but I was so desperate to try to figure this out, you know, the going into the treatment, you know, going with him to the meetings, all of these things. Nothing was working. So I finally said, if we don't go to marriage counseling, I don't know if if I can stay. I just can't, I can't, you know, I'm I was an executive, so I was really struggling to keep up with my job and come home to this, you know, come home to, I didn't know what I would come home to. It was always like a surprise. So we went to counseling, which is always a mistake if you're married to a narcissist, because they're not about admitting fault, they're not about uh trying to figure out the root problem. They're all about lying, lying to the counselor, making you look like you're the unstable one, and you do look unstable. Because when you go to counseling and you they start lying, you start getting upset. And so that's what happened. He was like, Well, she's under so much stress at work, you know, she's just blaming things on me. I really think she might be drinking during the day. And I'm like, So you your your reaction in in counseling is, are you what? I mean, I lost it. And so she's looking at me like you know, maybe you are unstable because he's being calm and he's you know, he's tearing up, and they're such, you know, Academy Award-winning actors. And so I was so furious and upset when we left. I said, I cannot believe you lied. And he said, Well, I didn't want you to just bash me the whole time. I'm like, that's not what marriage counseling is about. So we went one more time. It was not good. And so he said to her, he goes, I think I'm gonna get my own counselor because I think you're just siding with her and I'm gonna get because she kept calling him out on things. And I'll never forget, I was in my car because we we drove separately. She called me and she says, I have to fire you. She said, Um, I'm fired, you know, I don't want to see you two anymore. And she said, now I will see you, but I'm not gonna see you and your husband. She said, I believe he's a narcissist. It's the first time I ever heard that word. First time ever heard it. I went, I don't even know what that is. And so she said, Well, I need you to look it up. And she said, and I need you to read these traits. And so I, it was one of those things like the bell went off. I went, my gosh, this is why things aren't making sense. This is why I think I'm crazy. This is why I'm believing his lies. This is why I am, I am, I'm I'm never gonna fix it. It's not a fixable problem. There's no cure for it. So when people when you finally come to terms with it, that's when you can actually start doing something about it, but it has to do with you, not them. And that's where people have a big the biggest problem because a lot of times there's kids involved, and you know, there's marriage, and you might be a stay-at-home mom, and then there's money, and all these legal things come up. But it's it's once you find out, and that's that's kind of what that was for me, is I'm like, okay, now I know what I'm dealing with. I'm not gonna be able to fix it. I am not gonna be able to repair this marriage. My goal is to get out of the marriage. My biggest mistake was announcing that, and I wasn't prepared for that war. I said, I I want a divorce. You know, you're not the person I married. I'm this is never gonna work out. We're into year six. And um, he started laughing and he said, Okay, pack your bags and get out. Now, we lived in my house. It was my house. I'm the one that had the big job. He was always in some career that would fail. And I'm like, Well, I'm not leaving. And he goes, Well, I don't want a divorce, so I'm not leaving. And man, I was not prepared for that. And it it was a legal battle. I ended up having to get restraining order against him. I do have one for life, but because he became violent. Um, and so picking up the pieces during during the breakup, which is very difficult because I always tell people do not reveal your playbook until you're prepared to play that game. Because they will, they'll steamroll you because they'll lie, they'll start smear campaigns, they'll they'll turn the community against you and friends, family. You don't even know what's going on. You have no idea because you're you're trying to survive it, you're trying to figure it out. And so they, when they sense that they're losing control, that's when they start plotting, they start sending their false narrative out there. And it that's what makes it so difficult for people to leave. Because one, you've by this point, you've been isolated. They've probably, you know, pulled you away from all your friends, you're not doing any extra activities, they turn family members against you, they may have turned the kids against you. All of it is a ruthless and evil plot. I'm sorry, that's what it is. If that's who they are, that is all intentional. And it leaves you isolated, alone, devastated, uh, feeling like you have no choice, that you don't have any options. But that's what's that's what's not true. Um, so the acceptance and acknowledgement actually turns the brain a little bit differently into what is happening to, okay, now I know what's happening. Where are my next steps? And taking little tiny baby steps for that planning is what I tell my clients before you say anything, because this helps your brain prepare too, you know, so you're not in that survival mode of being paralyzed with fear. You're actually taking little action steps. And I'm a journaler. I mean, I had to start journaling back then because I did think I was losing my mind. So I'm I'm one of these people that push journaling, not because it's like, oh, you have to be a great writer. No, you're writing your facts down, your truth, because that's the only one that you need to believe is your truth. So I always tell people, journal, even if it's just writing the F word down for the first three pages, which is what my first journal looked like. I just was, I was just so furious. So, but writing things down, when you doubt yourself, you can go back and read your truth. You're not listening to the person because they will flip it around, they'll gaslight you. You have to believe your truth. So, writing things down was like a lifesaver for me because um, when in my weakest moments, when the charmer came back, when the love bombing started again, when they I'm so sorry. I I mean, I took him back three times. Three times. It was like, what is wrong with me? Me, but I fell for it. I felt because I wasn't whole. I wasn't healed. I wasn't recovered. I was still in the brain fog situation. And they're masters. They are masters. They are. Yeah. And they'll do it without even thinking about your true feelings.

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Narcissistic Parents And Boundary Rules

Michele Folan 22:17

Melissa, we're gonna take a quick break and when we come back, we're gonna talk about having a narcissistic parent. Quick pause for a second. If you've been listening to this podcast and thinking, oh my gosh, my friend needs to hear this. Don't keep it to yourself. Seriously. So many women out there are trying to figure this stuff out alone. Health hormones, aging, all of it. And half the time we don't even know where to start. That's exactly why I created this podcast. So if something you've heard today resonated with you, send it to a friend, a sister, your workout buddy, that woman you were just talking to about perimenopause over coffee. Because these conversations, they matter. And the more women we bring into this space, the better we all get. All right, let's get back to the episode. All right, we are back. Melissa, you know, we talk about leaving the the marriage, which may be easier at times than if you have a narcissistic parent because there's that lifelong bond with that person. Can you share an example of where you've worked with a client that has had this happen, or really kind of the steps that person would have to take to make sure that they stay whole emotionally?

Melissa Rymer 23:38

Yes, I've had actually quite a few clients that have had mothers, fathers, siblings, and some people have been on our guest show. In fact, I um I wrote a book that's called uh Blood Does Not Mean Bond for people who are dealing with not a spouse, but an in-law, a relative, a parent, because that changes the dynamics. Because, like you said, it's like this could be your mom or your dad. So you're talking about you might have kids and that's the grandparents, and you do holidays there, or you've got siblings that get together once a year. It can still cause such an incredible conflict to the point where it actually ruins your holidays, your family time together. And so boundaries are are like non-negotiable. And when I say that, um, the boundaries are dependent on the person that, like, let's say, like I have a client, it's her father. And um he's like so dependent on her because uh her mother died, but he tears her down. I mean, he caused her first marriage to end. I mean, her first husband left her because of her father, and so now it's causing strain on marriage number two, and she adores this man and he's wonderful, her husband. But the father, because he lost control of his wife because she died, the daughter has always been just it's like tear her down. She's never good enough. You're you can never get my approval, you can never get my love. You got to keep trying harder, harder, harder grades, athletics, everything. It starts, you know, it started a long time ago. And I said, um, there comes a point in time where you have to choose yourself. You have to be selfish. And it's not selfish in a way that uh is a negative sense, like you say, someone's self-centered or whatever, but you're the only person that can do that. You're the only person that can choose yourself over and above the person that is actually causing you misery. And the boundary setting doesn't have to go to the extreme of I'm never seeing you again. I have clients that they've had to do that. They've actually had to block that person so they can think clearly, so they can start healing. But the boundaries could be all right, if when we walk in, if this is what you're going to say, if this is what you're going to do, we're going to turn around and leave. And that's something you discuss with your family because it's not like your husband, your kids, or whatever, they can't see it. They see how upset you are. So that's something that you have to have. You got you have to have your posse, you know, yeah, saying, listen, we go in, granddad starts this, mom is going to say, All right, pack your stuff and we're gonna go eat pizza somewhere else. And I said, you can't just threaten that. I said, you are going to have to actually exercise that boundary. It it's it's very upsetting to the narcissist because you've never done it before. They've been able to get away with that. But once you start setting boundaries, even if they are just step-by-step boundaries, you are in charge of not allowing the boundary breaking. If you let, and they'll push, they will push to break the boundary. You have to have this is the boundary. If they do this, I'm going to do this. And it's not negotiable. It is the only way you can actually take control back of your life. And you may feel guilty about it, you may be worried about it. Then unfortunately, you're going to live your life exactly the way it is right now, and you're going to be abused by this person every single time you're around them. So setting boundaries is are the is the only way. And those boundaries can't be broken, and they may include actually blocking this person out of your life. And it is very, very hard to do. But when people start realizing what they've actually blocked, which is the abuse, the teardown, dragging your self-esteem down, when you start writing the things down, and I tell people this is it. You write two pieces of paper, what this their qualities, what they've brought to your life that's positive, not made up in your head on it. This is you. You have to be honest with yourself. What are the positive things? What are the negative things? What have they taken away from you? Where are your feelings when they do this? 99.9% of the time, the good qualities don't even go through this third line. The bad qualities are front and back, potentially pages. That's the that's the truth right there. And sometimes you have to see it. You can't just feel it and think it. You have to write it down. And then you can actually look at it. You know, what am I giving up? You're giving up these three things on this good side to put up with all these things on this negative side. So yeah.

Eating Disorders And Performance Pressure

Michele Folan 28:33

And you I can see where this is probably one of the hardest ones. You know, when it when it is a parent, because you you love your parent, but you also have a really difficult time grappling with how they treat you and knowing that they're likely not going to change. How how often are eating disorders, particularly with young women, associated with a narcissistic parent?

Melissa Rymer 29:00

Well, I do have I have one young client who um is anorexic because she was she's very athletic, um, but it's she can never measure up uh the the skill level, you know. It's never um, she's like a gymnast and she's in cheering and stuff. It's never, wow, that was amazing. You know, she came in second or whatever. It's always, if you would have done this, then you wouldn't have done that. It's it's not even get to that point. It's when you give them all the good things, it's well, it's that extra three pounds. If you just if you could drop that, you would be faster. You would you could run faster. You could, you know, you could your flips would be better. So it's never, and then it's like, okay, then she goes on these crazy starvation diets, which then sap her energy. So then she's weak, then she gets hurt. And I asked her one day, I said, um, that's the second time you, you know, that injury's happened. I said, um, you know, I know your coach said, you know, if you do this, you're not gonna hurt your wrist again. And she started crying and she said, um, she said, I did it on purpose. And um, it was almost like she did it on purpose so she didn't have to compete, so she didn't have to be torn down. It's really sad, it's really heartbreaking because she she couldn't do anything to please him, and so she harmed herself, you know, in order not to hear the teardowns. And of course, he was very upset about the her, but it was almost like that was a better form of abuse than him tearing her performance down. And so that's it's sad. It really is. Um, because you're what how you feel about yourself a lot of times has to do with what you're told over and over and over, you know. And so you're losing your self-confidence, your self-esteem, your self-worth is because the person is constantly tearing that down. Yeah. You know, tearing your your armor down.

Michele Folan 30:59

What are people getting wrong then when they think they can fix the relationship?

Melissa Rymer 31:05

Um, one, not understanding what they're dealing with. Because if you are dealing with a narcissist, you will never fix it. And that's that takes a lot of almost like courage to even find out about it, to find out if they are that. Because it's like, okay, once I find out, then I have to do something about it. That's that is correct. Yes, you have a choice then of how you're going to move forward. But the acceptance of it, if you, if you can't, if you don't want to find out what it is, then you're going to constantly have that juggling of, I'm going to try this, I'm going to try this, or you just give up and you be nothing and you're just quiet and you become as small as possible. It it just sucks the life out of you. It really does. And then you're not, you don't think you're strong enough or good enough, you know, and it's all because of the lies that they've fed to you. So wanting to make a difference, just wanting, wanting to do it, to take a step to find out what am I dealing with? And then now what can I do moving forward? It's huge because if you just stay paralyzed, that's it, it'll just get worse. It'll, it will never get better. It'll just get worse. And people have stayed in these relationships. I have clients 47 years, 45 years, and they're they're divorcing. They're going, they're they're getting out. It's taken them a long time, but it's like they've never felt more free in their life. And how terrifying to be married to 47 years and you're 75 years old, and it's like, I can't wait to look, I'm looking forward to the rest of my life, however long that is. I don't care if I'm alone. At least I'm free.

Michele Folan 32:43

Yeah.

Melissa Rymer 32:44

You know?

Health Toll And Recovery Pillars

Michele Folan 32:44

Yeah, I I have to say that what you do has to be incredibly gratifying when you see somebody that does like go through the steps and comes out on the other end and they're they're finally happy. But I have to say though, you know, we all know that stress and anxiety, all those things can do incredible damage to the body. Do you see patterns like sleep issues, anxiety, weight changes, burnout? Do you see that with your clients?

Melissa Rymer 33:11

Oh, gosh, yeah. Oh, absolutely. Um, in fact, I was um it it dearly destroyed me physically because I was always into um, you know, I worked out, I'm from Louisiana. I love to cook, you know, so I I I really, really love to cook. And so I was always, you know, I took very good care of myself. When I was going through this, the things that mattered to me as far as my health went started going to the wayside. Now I was like losing weight, I wasn't sleeping, insomnia, my hair was falling out, my skin, I looked gray. I it just I looked sick. And people were asking me, are you sick? You know, what's going on? And so it just takes such a toll on you physically. And you know, in our business, we we we we have what we call our four pillars of recovery, and that's mental, physical, financial, and spiritual, because those core things are what they take from you, and that's what gives you the strength to actually move forward. But when I met John, my husband, um, years and years later, John is a fitness fanatic. I mean, he's he's a, you know, he's always been into health and fitness and nutrition. And thank God for him, I would never take a vitamin in my life. Uh, but we just started peptides too, which is interesting because um, you know, I'm 63, he's 60, and we're we started taking him like six months ago. But that's been amazing. Um, but it's it's the the physical part, especially with women when they are in menopause, they've gone through menopause, you already think you're crazy then. But when you're going through abuse, it's so kind, people don't even have any clue. It's it's as bad as perabinaopause and menopause is going through it while being abused, it it's just it feels like it's not survivable, you know? And so getting back your strength, your and I tell people if you just walk to the mailbox and back, getting outside, breathing some air, listening to a bird, I don't care what it is, it is taking back some of your power, some of the control that's been taken away from you. And you can start with teeny tiny baby steps, but you start feeling better about yourself. And that's the whole thing with you know, journaling is not just writing down the doom and gloom, but writing down your goal. What do you what do I want? What do I see? What do I, if I could blink my eye if I was a genie, what would my life look like? Write that down. It creates dopamine, it creates a positive feeling in your head, something to look forward to. So it's very, it's gradual steps, but people think, well, it's just been too long. Like it had been seven years. I'd not step foot in a gym. I was scared, I didn't even know how to work the equipment anymore. And so I just started very small. And John and I um uh we uh we we incorporated warrior wellness into our program because that's part of the physical thing, but it's all about just practical things you can do when you're just starting back again and taking control of your, you know, your physical being.

Michele Folan 36:14

And I do want to talk about the warrior piece of this because I I think this is very integral in how people move forward. I I wanted to ask one last question about the who, because I just thought of friendships. You know, friendships are they can be delicate, right? Because you may be part of a friend group, but you've got that one friend in that friend group that may be the narcissist.

Speaker 1 36:42

Yeah.

Narcissists In Friend Groups

Michele Folan 36:42

How do people set boundaries with that person without losing touch with the rest of their friends?

Melissa Rymer 36:48

That is a hard one. It really is, because I have a client um who she was part of um, and she's probably I think she's about 65, but they had a woman's group that met once a month for lunch, and they had a name for their group or whatever, but there was the one, the one woman. And it's like out of the nine or 10 women, she targeted my client. It was there was some kind of jealousy or competition. There's always a reason for it. They feel that um it because she was bubbly and funny, and you know, people kind of gravitated to her. So she was a threat. And so that person would always make these little underhanded comments, you know, about her outfit or her haircut, or wow, did you know, did your hairdresser mess the color up this time? Those little passive aggressive things that seem harmless and funny, but they hurt, you know, they they hurt. And so she talked to the lady about it. And you know, of course, it's they never admit it. So she's like, Oh, you're just being insecure. She goes, Oh my gosh, everybody thought that was funny. You know, why are you so insecure? And so unfortunately, the lady did the little smear campaigns with the other, you know, some of the other friends and stuff. And so um, she felt like she was being excluded from things. Like, you know, she would see something on Facebook and she didn't know anything about it. And so it was starting to get very um hurtful to her because she's like, okay, this person is now taking away my friend group. And so I said, Well, why who in the group do you trust? You know, because I hate to use all these crazy terms, but they're always there's flying monkeys out there, and flying monkeys are the ones that actually spread the gossip, they're the ones that like stirring the pot, they're the ones that you can't really trust because if you say something, they'll go back to that narcissist and then they'll feed off of it. It's horrible. It's like the wicked witch of the West. But uh, so um, I'm like, you have to watch out for those people. But I said, is there somebody in there that you actually trust and that you have a close relationship that you can just go to lunch with and just be honest? You're not bashing the person. You talk about what what it's what it feels like for you, you know, um, because you don't want to sound like that person, like she's doing this, she's doing that, whatever. So she actually did that. She actually talked had that heart-to-heart conversation with the one person. And she said, All I'm asking you to do is just be aware, just see if it is it me? Am I being insecure? Am I? And so the next couple lunches, that person actually was observant and actually kind of, and she bounced some of the negative comments back to the other woman. And then that woman got very, you know, very defensive or whatever. And then all of a sudden, she started, the other lady now was the victim. And so it took them a while to figure out because this woman was, you know, she was an attorney, she was smart, she had a lot of money, she paid for a lot of stuff. It took them a while, but they all they figured out that she actually was the cancer in the group. And so um, as a team, they decided to, you know, this wasn't the group for her. And they they actually removed her from the group. But my my client was this close to removing herself from the group, which means that person would have won, you know, and she would have been alone. And I, you know, it it may or may not always work out that way, but you have to be brave enough to at least have somebody in your corner that you trust, somebody that has your that has your back that actually can defend you if there's little smearing things going on behind your back. Because if you don't do anything, if you just if you start pulling back, then it becomes easier for whatever lies this person is saying to become believable, you know, like and it won't ever be, it'll always sound like concern. Yeah, you know, it's never gonna be full-on bashing. And then you start pulling away, you start don't you don't show up because you don't want to deal with it, then it's well, see, you know, she's having issues, she's having issues with her family, she's having marital problems, and it becomes where it seems like the lies might be true. So I always say you you have to have that person in your corner. Um, and I had one in mind, we call ourselves the Yah Yah Sisterhood, and there's like 10 of us. They uh because I started isolating, I stopped going. I, you know, I was always making excuses for his behavior, you know, and finally I didn't want to deal with it. I didn't want to explain it anymore. And so they stopped inviting me. They did, but one of them did not give up on me. And she said, There's something going on, and I'm not going to stop until you tell me what it is. And I'm I'm just busy, we're just, you know, it's just merit. I'm just tired. And she did not give up on me. And and so finally she just said, Um, there's something about your husband I don't like. I'm just gonna tell you right now. She said, I'm sorry, there's something going on. She said, I don't, I think he's fake. And she just like let me have it. And I was like, Yes, he's all those things. But you know, it could have gone bad for her because I could have said, What do you mean? You know, but she was the one person in nine years, she did not give up on me. And so I just, you know, I'm grateful for her because I confided in her. I told her every I it's almost embarrassing. It's almost like, uh, how did I fall for all of that? It's not like you fall for it overnight. It happens gradually, it's a gradual breakdown. And by the time you realize you're all you're you have kids, you're married, you're financially strapped to that person, you still love them. So it that's where people beat themselves up. And other people that haven't been through it are like, well, why didn't you just leave? You should be thankful that you're gone. It doesn't work that way. The brain doesn't work that way. Yeah, it's it's very hard to let go and it's very hard to break that bond.

Rebuilding Identity And Non Negotiables

Michele Folan 42:44

Well, and I think this is important because it, you know, we we talked about the marriage, the parent, the friend. There's there's different levels of connection and bond and responsibility there that you know, one is easier than the other to walk away from. So I think that was it, that was a good exercise here for us to talk about the three. It is possible to rebuild. And you you talk about becoming the warrior. How do you start rebuilding your identity after leaving?

Melissa Rymer 43:17

Yes. And that's and that's the most interesting part because um who you were when they met you and who you are when you get out are two different people. Um, most of the time you can't even recognize yourself because you're thinking, oh my gosh, I was so confident. I, you know, I cared about the way I looked, I didn't gain weight or I didn't look sick. All of these things, when you start looking at a photo of yourself back then and a photo of yourself now, chances are these are like two different people. You you really are it's almost a rude awakening, but it's it's something for you to look at to say, you know what? Did I like who I was when I met them? Was that who I wanted to be? Is that Was that? Do I like a piece of her? Do I like all of her? Do I want that person back? Or do I want to be a different version of her? In my case, um, I realized um when I was going through my my healing journey, the person I was, I admired her, she was successful, she was confident, but she was a people pleaser to the point of it was the achievement, the why, why, why, why? Why was I wanting that? Why was I, you know, trying to climb the corporate ladder, you know, just get to the top and do good work. But was it the do good work or was it the recognized, was it being recognized and admired? And so there were things about my personality that I learned that I didn't want to bring over into the the healing part of it. I wanted the compassion, I wanted the empathy, I wanted, I wanted some of some of what caused me to probably fall prey to this person. I I like those things about me. I like being compassionate. I'm kind. I like, I'm I'm a happy person. I've got it, you know, I think I have a positive attitude. So there's things that I wanted to pull from this original person into the person that I am now. I wanted those traits, even if they were the some of the traits that got me in trouble, at least I could recognize things. I could recognize things. And what it did is it one, I spent um a long time just alone. And I don't mean like alone, isolated, I mean not in a relationship, because I wanted to know the who I am. Who am I? Who who do I want to be? And once I find out the real person and I'm comfortable and happy with this real person, then it doesn't really matter if I meet somebody or I don't meet someone. But if I do, I know what I want, I know what I don't want, I know what I will put up with, I know what I won't put up with. I'm not saying I don't compromise, but it it helped me to where I wasn't looking for someone to fill a hole, like something lonely inside of me, or something that I thought, well, if I had a partner, then it will be better, or then I could enjoy this more, then I can do that more. I took all of that out of the equation because I was really scared of making the mistake again and falling victim to it. So I planned it where I'm like, okay, I'm going to build my life and I'm going to be very comfortable with who I am as a person. And then if I meet someone, they're either going to like who I am or they're not the person for me. I'm not going to tweak, change, and I'm not saying I don't compromise, believe me, John and I have to compromise. It's a marriage. But I'm not going to, especially early on in the relationship, change what I think and my views about things to fit into their narrative because I really like them and I want them to like me. It's that's not that's not part of who I am anymore. Um, I'm still compassionate, I'm open-minded, you know, I I'm I compromise. But compromising who you are as a person to blend in with someone else is a dangerous track to go on because that's when you, if that person is somebody that would would take advantage of it, then that pattern starts repeating itself. And and I do have clients that they're so lonely and they feel so bad about themselves, they want that, they want someone to fill that hole instead of it being themselves. And then they make that mistake again and they get into another, you know, damaging relationship.

Michele Folan 47:39

So yeah, that that was gonna be my main question about all of that was the fear of making another mistake, because you if you're still that same person, yeah, you may go that path. But if you if you do the healing and you become your own warrior and be true to yourself, you're less likely to walk that path again.

Melissa Rymer 48:06

Because well, you know, you know what you want. You know what's you know, some and what I tell my clients is I I said, you know, relationships are are all about give and take, but they have to be give and take. It can't be take, take, take, give, give, give, which is what what we go through when we're in these abusive relationships. So you've got to write down before you even get out there and you know, meet someone, write down your non-negotiables. You know, write down, like, you know, if it's religion, write that down. So many people will use religion as a weapon, you know. But that if that's a non-negotiable, then write it down. Um, if you're um working out, you know, like your health and your fitness, I'm not gonna give that up. You certainly don't want to be with someone who wants to, you know, eat bonbons and chips and and you know, sit on the couch or, you know, not do anything, not be physical and get out and do things. Don't compromise. It's like, where are what are they? You know, what are your non-negotiables? Write those things down because that will help you when you're when you're meeting someone or anything, a friend, whatever, whatever somebody you want to spend some of your life with. If your non-negotiables have to be negotiated, then that's probably not the person you want to invest your time and effort with, because you're you are going to be compromising your non-negotiables. And you may just have one, you may have two, you may have five. It's it's your individual list, but write those down because if someone's asking you to compromise it, they may not be the person that you want in your life, no matter what that is.

Michele Folan 49:37

Yeah, I think this is good advice for even young people who are getting married for the first time. I, you know, I I think these are things that we all should have are non-negotiables. I mean, there's certainly we can compromise on many things. Right. But the scary part is what you told me at the beginning was it could be six months, it could be six years, it could be 26 years. It it it like when does the the evil person rear rear his ugly head, you know?

Biggest Red Flag And How To Verify

Melissa Rymer 50:09

And then that's what it's generally very soon, it's generally when they're trying to win you, there'll be some red flags because you'll go back and you'll think, Wow, that was kind of a red flag. But I didn't have my non-negotiables, and so I didn't realize it was a red flag. But then the red flags start adding up. And and that's the sad part. It's like when someone's finally reaching a point of asking for help, they they can see when the relationship started changing. But it was a situation where you get through that whole, you know, denial. Let me fix it, let me try harder. All of that takes time and effort, and it just drains you as a person. Um, and I think the reason people stay so much longer than than they should is because they don't know what they're dealing with, they think they have no options, and they just feel too weak in order to move forward. And and those things are not true because if you do want out and you are miserable, you can't you can't do it, even if it's little tiny baby steps. At least it's moving in the right direction. But it takes that what I tell people, the first step's always the hardest. Yeah. The acknowledgement and saying, I want to do something about this. I just don't know what to do.

Michele Folan 51:25

Melissa, what is uh the biggest red flag people ignore?

Melissa Rymer 51:30

Um, I would say just from myself and my clients, and it sounds so cliche, but if something seems too good to be true, you really want to investigate it. And I say that it's just if if somebody seems just like you're kind of going, wow, then what I what I tell people like mine told me he he he liked to do yoga, that he loved water skiing, that um, you know, and the thing he loved going to the beach, all of the things that I love. Well, when I went to his Facebook, he he he was a snow skier, you know, and he went to the race cars, you know, it's like how what is that, you know? So I tell people, you know, in the internet is a very easy place to find information about someone. So if you if there's somebody you want to spend some time with or you think you do, just look look them up, man. Look them up on Google social media. If they're starting to tell you things that uh that sound so great and so exciting, but they have no photos about it, they have nothing on their profile anywhere that shows up that that is something they want to do, then why would they say that? You you can't change your history. I mean, if people look at my Facebook, they'll they'll see all they'll see the sunsets, the sunrise to nauseum, you know. So when someone says I'm a beach person, then if they don't have anything about the beach, they're not a beach person. So why'd they say that to you? So it's one, it's those are the things that I think people miss those red flags. They take it at face value because it's what they want to hear. They want to feel it.

Michele Folan 53:09

Yeah, I could see where someone is just tells you what you want to hear. And you know, if if it's a little over the top, then yeah, that's yeah. Yeah.

Melissa Rymer 53:20

All right. Well, and sometimes people just exaggerate, and that's okay. You can exact, you can say, well, I'm a good water skier. Maybe they suck at water skiing, but they try and they they have gone water skiing. But when someone, you know, tells you things that start making you think, wow, this is this is a person that has that gets me and has so much in common with me, I would say don't take it all as face value. You know, talking to friends and families, looking at Facebook, having these just these little um questions, because if I would have listened to his mother, his mother's, I love her, that the things that she would say, uh, they would red flags. They were red flags. It was almost like she was trying to warn me without really warning, because she was scared of him too. So, but it was little things that uh and and John, you know, because he was with a covert in our her father and her brother said things to him about, well, I hope, you know, I hope you get used to having vacations ruined. We, you know, she ruined all of our vacations. That's something, you know, they were ha ha and about it. That was a big red flag right there, you know, and they were just dating. So people, I think people just they want uh companionship, they just want to be happy, they want to spend their life with someone. We're creatures, that's who we we were meant to be. But when you want something so bad, sometimes you don't open your eyes to what's going on. Um, and so the the red flags are when their actions and their words don't connect, and you're you have kind of a moment of, hmm, don't ignore that because there's generally your words and actions, maybe they don't always match up, but they should.

Michele Folan 55:01

Yeah, you know. Yeah, thought that's that's terrific advice, actually. And and on a personal note, what is one of your non-negotiables in your life right now?

Melissa Rymer 55:12

It's probably my Christianity. I grew up Catholic and um, you know, it's just very rigid. Um, and so when I finally got out on my own, I just stopped going to church altogether. You know, I just stopped going to church. Um, and so um it was years and years later that I actually started just because I was so lost. I was just devastated. I couldn't, I didn't understand. I was praying, you know. I'm like, I don't, I just didn't know what to do. I'm like, do you even hear me? What's happening here? But when I got back in into the Bible and and starting to actually read the word and understand there's a personal relationship I could have with Jesus Christ, that's not negotiable to me. Some people have higher power, some people have different spirituality. It's uh it's not even a um a question of is mine better than yours or yours better than mine? Mine's not negotiable. So, John, I would never have gone out with him if he told me, well, you know, I'm really not into religion or I'm not into that, or you know, I'm not gonna stop you from doing it. That's a big part of my life. And so this mission that this company that we we did this out of praying about it, you know, because we retired. And so um, that is a non-negotiable for me. Yeah, is um my Christianity.

Michele Folan 56:26

Wow. Yeah. You know what? I'm so glad you didn't say sleep. Because I'm an insomnia now.

Melissa Rymer 56:33

I'm sure John would say it. Yeah, he'd probably say that because I keep him up, but I'm not a good sleeper. I'm a much better sleeper now that I'm on peptides. That made a big difference. But uh, I've never been a good sleeper. So yeah, yeah.

Michele Folan 56:44

It's just so it's funny because probably 90% now in the last year, I would say 90% of my guests will say, Oh, sleep. Sleep's my non-negotiable. But I love that you you brought up your your relationship with God. I love that. I I think that has helped me through many days.

Melissa Rymer 57:02

Yeah, yeah. Sometimes that's all you have.

Michele Folan 57:05

I know, right? That's all I had.

Melissa Rymer 57:07

It was like, okay, well, here you go. Can you please take this problem for me? Because I can't deal with it. All right.

If Something Feels Off Do This

Michele Folan 57:11

Jesus, take the wheel. And then Melissa, if someone listening feels like something is off in their relationship, and it it can be it can be a partner, it could be a spouse, it could be a parent or even their bestie. But they're they're not quite sure. What would you say to them?

Melissa Rymer 57:32

Well, one, if they if they're interested in figuring it out, I would suggest that questionnaire. Because like I said, it's free. Um, it it answers a lot of common sense things as you took it. You took it and and and saw what it said. And then once they, once they come to those terms, whether or not it's traits are full on, I think it gives them a better opportunity to make a decision. Because if somebody rates very high on there and they start thinking about personal things that they've done in their relationship, what they've said, it comes down to how much of yourself are you willing to sacrifice for that relationship? Because that person may not be willing to sacrifice anything or the same level or even close to it. So, how much are you willing to take from your pot and pour into their pot to make them happy? Knowing it's taking happiness out of your tank. So if if you have to take happiness out of your tank and you never get it coming back in, then that relationship is going to be exhausting and draining and will literally it will take away who you are as a person because when you start pouring that much of yourself into someone else to make that person happy, you're not responsible for anyone else's happiness. And that's where people don't realize it's not your job. It's not your job to make someone else happy. That that's not your job. So if it becomes a job, if it feels like a job, then making the decision as to whether or not you want to move forward in that relationship is uh is huge. And that is a very, very difficult decision because you probably care about a lot about that person. But if you don't want to sever it, you have to create the boundaries, the non-negotiable boundaries. That's protecting yourself, that's protecting your armor. So um people have to realize if they're not willing to respect your boundaries, they don't respect you. You you don't mean that much to them. Otherwise, they wouldn't, they wouldn't be willing to compromise. They would be willing to say, you know what? That's important to you, and I'm gonna respect that. If they say, I'm not doing that, that is what they're saying about you. You don't matter to them. You your feelings don't matter. You don't matter. And that's the hardest thing for someone to accept when they care about the other person. But it's it's absolutely critical if you want to have some type of control of that relationship. And it's a relationship that actually brings you brings you happiness. It can't just all be take, take, take and nothing coming back. And so that's probably where people have the hardest decision. But it's what what is the relationship bringing to you?

Speaker 1 1:00:19

Yeah.

Melissa Rymer 1:00:19

Yeah. Could you even answer the question? Can you what is it? Is it because I'll ask that to somebody, what is that relationship bringing to you? And they're like, um you shouldn't have to think that long. You know? No. If the relationship is that important to you, you shouldn't have to think that long as to what it's what it's what are you getting from the relationship? What is that person bringing to your life rather than what they're taking from your life?

Michele Folan 1:00:44

So perfectly said. All right. Melissa Reimer, where can the listeners find you and John and your work and even social media?

Melissa Rymer 1:00:53

Our website is victim2warrior method.com. And that website has pretty much everything we offer. We offer tons of resources, one-on-one coaching, not just recovery coaching, but divorce coaching. And we offer warrior wellness, our podcast is on there, um, our books, our um, we've got tons of free resources where people can actually go and just learn about things and then looking at our podcast, Warrior Talk. But anytime they enter victim to Warrior, all of our social media channels will come up. We do a lot of of skits, and we the reason we do skits is because sometimes people need to see what it looks like. So John is always the bad guy most of the time, and it's hard for him to be the bad guy. And sometimes we do bloopers at the end of the year because he can't even get through these. But when you look at our videos, um, we show what gaslighting looks like, we show what isolation looks like, we show what love bombing looks like. All of these skits are actual, well, the real life things that happen to us. And it's somebody able to look in and see, oh, and that is that is when really things started blowing up because people were like, oh my God, that's what I'm going through, that's what I'm dealing with, that's my life. You filming me. So it takes some time seeing it, and then you realize I'm not the crazy one. That, okay, this isn't me. And that's and a lot of the all of our resources are always on there in our Lincoln bio and things like that. But we um we're also coming out with a new mobile app. So we'll hopefully have that launched in two weeks. But it's it's a a lot of people are financially abused when they're going through this, and money's a problem. So we we try to come up with something that was, you know, just a monthly inexpensive subscription where people could actually connect, they could be in a community, they could get the resources, they can go join our live, you know, Q ⁇ A's and things like that, um, where they actually feel like they're part of a community who gets them, who understands it, who's been there, done that, or struggling, or you know, we our private Facebook group probably has 5,000 people in it from all over the world, but people have been there like, oh my God, I was there last year. This is what I did to get out of that. And then they're well, I was I'm here now, but this is what I did to get out of that. So it's like talking to a group of community that you don't have to try to explain what it is. You're basically saying it's a safe place to say, this is what happened to me. What do I do? Or why do I miss the abuser? Because a lot of people do, they don't realize you go through a grieving process when that relationship's over because you're grieving the loss of who you thought they were, the life you thought you would have, the person you used to be. And people don't understand that that grieving process doesn't someone doesn't have to be dead for you to grieve. You're grieving the loss of everything that you thought you had.

Speaker 1 1:03:41

Yeah.

Melissa Rymer 1:03:42

So um, and going through that, those phases can actually get to you to the other side of acceptance and freedom and moving on.

Michele Folan 1:03:51

And I love the power of community, Melissa. I think that is, you know, that's that's the part of the, hey, I'm not alone. And this isn't just me that's going through this. So I just think that's that's wonderful that you have that established for the people that follow you.

Melissa Rymer 1:04:08

Yeah, and it's private and it's anonymous, so they can enjoy anonymous. Like it's private. We vet people, and we do that for a reason. And it's and it's so people don't feel alone because you do feel very alone and that people don't get it. So that kind of helps people realize you're not alone. Yeah. Yeah.

Michele Folan 1:04:24

Love it. Melissa Reimer, thank you for being here today on Asking for a Friend. I love this conversation. And if you are listening to this and this is resonating with you, reach out to Melissa or if you want to share this episode with a friend, I appreciate it.

Melissa Rymer 1:04:41

Thank you so much for having me. This is wonderful. I really, really enjoyed it.

Michele Folan 1:04:44

Thanks for being here.

Melissa Rymer 1:04:45

Thank you.

Michele Folan 1:04:47

Before you go, thank you for being here. If you want to go a little deeper, make sure you check out the show notes for this episode. That's where I link anything we mentioned, resources, partners, or tools I actually use and trust. And if you're not already on the Asking for a Friend community newsletter, that's where I share practical midlife tips, favorite finds, recipes, and the things that don't always make it onto the podcast or Instagram. You'll find the link to join in the show notes. Take care, and I'll see you next week.