Asking for a Friend - Health, Fitness & Personal Growth Tips for Women in Midlife

Ep.143 Mindful Exploration: Psychedelics, Meditation & Retreats for Holistic Healing with Neil Markey

• Michele Henning Folan • Episode 143

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Is there a way to tackle PTSD and depression beyond the confines of traditional treatment? What if you are seeking a stronger connectedness and spiritual growth in your life? Join us as we sit down with Neil Markey, the co-founder and CEO of Beckley Retreats, who shares his personal journey from a small town in Maryland to the battlefields of Iraq and Afghanistan. Neil opens up about his struggles with mental health and how a profound shift towards meditation and psychedelics helped him find a new path to healing. Through his story, we uncover the limitations of conventional treatments and the vital need to explore alternative, holistic therapies in mental health care.

Neil takes us through his transformative journey from the corporate world to a life centered around wellness and spiritual growth. Stress and misalignment with personal values led to health challenges, but by creating space for new opportunities, Neil found a renewed sense of purpose and happiness. We examine how aligning with one's true values can bring about significant improvements in well-being, exploring the profound interconnectedness of human experiences and the spiritual components that often accompany them.

With a focus on the role of immersive retreat centers, Neil highlights the transformative impact of safe and thoughtfully structured psychedelic experiences. By embracing new adventures and making intentional efforts to sustain change, participants can strengthen community bonds and foster personal growth. We delve into the synergy between meditation and psychedelic experiences, revealing how these retreats can enhance adherence to meditation practices, ultimately benefiting sleep, blood pressure, and overall well-being. Listen in to discover the wisdom and openness that older participants bring to these journeys and the inspiring stories of transformation that unfold in these unique settings.

You can find Neil Markey and Beckley Retreats at:

https://www.beckleyretreats.com/

https://www.instagram.com/beckleyretreats/

https://www.linkedin.com/company/beckley-retreats/posts/?feedView=all

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Michele Folan:

Health, wellness, fitness and everything in between. We're removing the taboo from what really matters in midlife. I'm your host, Michele Folan, and this is Asking for a Friend. One thing I always aim to do is bring our audience a wide variety of topics in the health and wellness arena. Sometimes we have guests on the show that may challenge the status quo or medical norms to which we're accustomed, but I believe that when we are searching for answers when it comes to our health and the health of our families, it's important to know and understand all the options. We are not one size fits all and certainly important to know and understand all the options. We are not one-size-fits-all and certainly, as medical science and innovation evolves, there may be an opportunity to explore alternatives that are safe and proven over time.

Michele Folan:

Neil Markey is the co-founder and CEO of Beckley Retreats, the world's only psychedelics retreat program, backed by 25 years of scientific research and an ecosystem of expertise that honors global wisdom traditions. A former captain in the US Army Special Operations 2nd Ranger Battalion, neil served in Iraq and Afghanistan before studying at Columbia University, where he struggled with depression and PTSD. This led him to explore mindfulness and psychedelics as part of his healing journey. Prior to Beckley. He was chief growth officer for a $450 million private equity portfolio company and a consultant at McKinsey and Company. Neil Markey, welcome to Asking for a Friend.

Neil Markey:

Thank you for having me.

Michele Folan:

Yeah, nice to meet you. Nice to meet you too. We chatted for a couple minutes before we got started, but I'd love for you, Neil, to tell the audience a little bit more about where you're from, where your roots are. And then I want to hear more about your stint in the Army and all that good stuff too.

Neil Markey:

Sure. Well, I grew up in a small town about an hour north of Washington DC called Frederick, Maryland, and my whole family is still there. Actually, on my dad's side we can trace back. They've been there for 300 years, so we're deep in Frederick and it certainly feels like home.

Neil Markey:

And then I was studying math at University of Maryland and then September 11th happened and I wanted to go help. I thought I was doing the right thing, so I joined the officer program you could actually see the smoke from the top of the Pentagon or from the top of the football stadium at the Pentagon and it was a huge day in my life, like it was for many. And I finished school and went in as a lieutenant and I believe that whole weapons of mass destruction narrative that we ended up getting pretty wildly wrong. Unfortunately, by that time I had already made the commitment and ended up in Iraq as a lieutenant leading an infantry platoon and then got a chance to go try out for the Ranger Regiment, which is a small special operations unit, and when I was there I was more on the planning side, so I was a bit removed from the you know the worst of it, but it still left some marks for sure. And I mean, now looking back, everybody in that unit had some form of PTSD. I mean, these are the guys that were doing the night raids. So it was wildly intense and although part of me loved it and was so fortunate to be there, I really looked up to those guys and I mean, leroy Petrie got the medal of honor when I was there and his locker was right next to mine. It was larger than life and it was wildly traumatic. It was horrible.

Neil Markey:

And I got out in 2012 and went to graduate school and, by some measures, was doing well I was putting one foot in front of the other but by some other measures I was really struggling.

Neil Markey:

I was starting to isolate and having trouble sleeping and severe anxiety and anger, and I tried quite a few different traditional interventions, different medications and sleeping pills and didn't have a whole lot of luck. And then was introduced to meditation while I was a grad student and meditation was exactly what I needed and I started practicing that and learning more about other interventions that weren't just the establishment and then I had the chance to have some professionally facilitated psychedelic experiences. There's a long history of veterans, particularly the special operations community, getting access to these treatments on the underground in the United States and in Central and South America and I was fortunate to have some of those and for me it was profound. It was a real opportunity to reset. Now it wasn't one and done, but it was the beginning of a kind of a new path and learning a new way to live. So that's kind of how I got into this work over 10 years ago now.

Michele Folan:

So yeah, because I was going to make the assumption that the VA wasn't offering you these types of medications. Right, and I'll call them medications.

Neil Markey:

But no, they weren't. But the VA just put in their strategic plan for the first time last year to research these compounds. So it's happening. I'm encouraged, okay, and the VA has got a big hairy mission. It's a hard mission. So I think they're doing a pretty good job. But the reality is is the drug companies have a lot of influence in this whole system, in the VA and in the established medical system, and the incentives are what they are and they drive a certain type of behavior because there's money to be made.

Neil Markey:

It's just the reality of where we are. So the reason you don't see a lot of people get prescribed healthy diet and exercise and meditation and time in nature is there's just not a lot of money to be made in that, so it's just not going to be top of the priority list.

Michele Folan:

You don't have to get me started on this, because you're speaking my language and I came from the pharmaceutical industry. I spent years there, I left and now really just what I'm seeing now kind of transpaceuticals and more natural modalities to treat people because it's not being made available to people and I think that's such a travesty. One other thing, neil is and I don't know if this is cliche, but thank you for your service. Appreciate that very much, that time that you spent honoring your service to the country. So thank you for that.

Neil Markey:

Thank you for that. Yeah, it was my path, you know, and I'm so fortunate for it.

Michele Folan:

Thank, you, yeah Well, even as hard as it was, and your life afterwards and coming out of that, it's who you are today and you wouldn't have pursued this path of helping others, right? And so it's that double-edged thing that you've got. But I do want to ask you so, when you got introduced into the world of psychedelics, are we talking psilocybin? Am I saying that right?

Neil Markey:

Yeah, psilocybin Okay.

Michele Folan:

Mushrooms, Mushrooms. Okay, Will you explain that a little bit what those compounds look like?

Neil Markey:

Yeah, there's a bunch of different types of fungus or mushrooms and a certain percentage of them have a psychoactive compound in them called psilocybin a psychoactive compound in them called psilocybin and when you take it in a large enough dose it makes you hallucinate or trip or be high. And if you do these experiences in a controlled manner, it looks like you can actually get a lot out of them in terms of letting things go and developing a new perspective, and it looks like they have some pretty direct impact on the central nervous system and sort of letting things kind of rewire. If you look at what happens in the brain under an fMRI when people are on psilocybin at high doses, it allows parts of the brain to connect that maybe have never connected before or have lost connection, so the brain lights up in ways and so it's really fascinating. But it looks like there's quite a broad array of potential use cases. So they could be used on the clinical end of the spectrum as a way to kind of get someone that is, you know, dealing with PTSD, treatment-resistant depression, things like this, to kind of get them up to better and well.

Neil Markey:

Kind of get them up to better and well, and then it looks like you can take people that are generally well and give them these experiences controlled environment and they can kind of move up the ladder. They can develop higher levels of empathy, this sense of awe, creativity, cognitive function. It looks like they're neuroregenerative, so they're healthy for the brain, so long as if they're done in the right way. And I should also mention too that they are very different than our typical pharmaceutical, so to use them optimally it requires kind of some awareness and buy-in from the user. So you can't just take mushrooms. I mean you can, but if you just take mushrooms like you would take a drug your doctor gave you and went on about your day, that's the wrong approach. So there's a real intentionality that's required with these to get something out of them or to at least optimize the experience. It's quite different than what we're used to as Americans.

Michele Folan:

Okay, so I have to say, the only real knowledge I have had of this process is do you remember and I don't know how long ago this was but Chelsea Handler?

Neil Markey:

Yes.

Michele Folan:

Okay, she and I guess it was like a shaman, it was like the sweat tent and the whole deal and she had quite a reaction to it. And that's what I think of when I think of going through that process. How close is that to what you see in your experiences?

Neil Markey:

Yeah, so you can have these experiences in a doctor's office, by yourself, with headphones on, you know, in a clinical environment, and we as an organization are supportive of people that do it in that way because for some indications and desired outcomes and individuals, that's the better entry point. You can also go do these experiences in Peru, up the river, a couple days, in the middle of nowhere, in a very traditional way. We're kind of in the middle. Nice experience.

Neil Markey:

But also bring in what we've learned from how traditional communities are doing this in terms of the intentionality and making it special and doing it in groups and having some ceremony around it. Because what we've seen, and I think that this world is understanding, is that everything that happens around it the context, the set and the setting that happens around it the context, the set and the setting, the who you're with, the location you are, the what led you up to it, the preparation, how the experience is facilitated, all the after, the integration, the making sense of the, integrating it into your life that matters just as much, if not more, as the actual compound does. So we really think about it, as we're running integrative health programs that use these experiences as a way to kind of accelerate positive change.

Michele Folan:

Yeah, what you're saying is it's the total experience that you bring people in and it's very spiritual. It sounds like.

Neil Markey:

There's definitely a spiritual component to it. I think it's hard to deny that, you know. But there's these phenomena that are happening and it becomes very clear when you have these experiences that there's something that is alive in us and there's a connection between us and other human beings. We can measure this in some ways, but I don't think we have the full understanding by any means. But we know that we're electromagnetic beings and you can pick up on my central nervous system and I can pick up on yours. So there's all this interconnectedness between us humans. And then there's an interconnectedness between us and nature, living things.

Neil Markey:

Again, we can measure some pieces of that, but when you have one of these experiences becomes very clear, not just from like a rational okay, I understand the mechanics but like from an intuitive kind of deep knowingness. And when that happens, things shift and we don't understand all of what's happening, but it's quite significant. You know many people come through and, um, well, I'll tell you that we just were doing a 2024 kind of uh, an assessment of ourselves and things and 88% of our guests said it was the most meaningful or one of the most meaningful experiences of their life. Wow, so something profound is happening. Yeah, that is. That's quite fascinating.

Michele Folan:

I want to back up just a little bit. So when you were at McKinsey and you were in the corporate world, and during that time, I think is when you were struggling to kind of piece everything together, and at what point did you say the traditional methods just aren't helping me, when did you finally say, okay, I got to do something else.

Neil Markey:

Well, that was really when I got out of the service and into grad school and I had this period where I learned how to live differently. I really got into meditation, where I learned how to live differently. I really got into meditation. I stopped drinking. I started a small business with my brother when I was in grad school and then, when I finished school, I did a teacher certification in meditation and for a period of time, was teaching meditation and working on this small business, and so I had purposeful work. I was living in my hometown, I had good community, I was exercising, I was doing all my hometown. I had good community, I was exercising, I was doing all the right things and all of my symptoms were gone. I felt inspired every day. I was happy, I was optimistic. You know all these positive feelings that everybody wants.

Neil Markey:

What is clear to me now, with the benefit of hindsight, was when I went into the corporate world, I lost my way a little bit.

Neil Markey:

My well-being started to slip, and I think that was because there was a bit of a mismatch in terms of values and a mismatch in terms of the work that I'm supposed to be doing as a small kid from Frederick, maryland, and just what I want to be part of in this world.

Neil Markey:

And I was in the corporate world for five years or so McKinsey and then I was doing some restructuring work with a private equity company, and at the tail end of that work I remember realizing that some of my symptoms were coming back the stress, the sleeplessness, the relationships are just a bit more strained.

Neil Markey:

I was out of shape. And then I was looking at a lot of my peers and many of them were having similar symptoms and none of them had been to war and a lot of them had impressive degrees and came from well-to-do families and you know, they weren't exhibiting PTSD symptoms, but they could be doing a lot better if they were taking better care of themselves and they had all the resources. It was just like an environment thing and a kind of a value alignment thing, and so I kind of had this valley and then realization, and then went back down and then hit another kind of like little, maybe not a rock bottom, but a wake up where it's like, hey, you need to live differently, like this path is not for you. And that's when I left, that's when I met Amanda Fielding and then this whole Beckley organization, and now I think I'm working on something that is on path for me.

Michele Folan:

Yeah, and back to the stress thing. When we overload ourselves with stress, whether it's work, home, whatever, sometimes I don't think we have an appreciation for how much that affects our physical being.

Neil Markey:

Oh my God, yeah, it's very significant.

Michele Folan:

Yeah, and I think the other piece of that which I love that you mentioned that you know, when you were in the corporate world, you weren't doing what you were really meant to be doing.

Neil Markey:

Yeah.

Michele Folan:

And, um, I had a similar epiphany about this time last year and when I left, I left the corporate world and it's scary when you make that leap. So I'm curious, when you left your rather cushy corporate job, like what were you thinking Like? Were you scared?

Neil Markey:

Yeah, I think I had some anxiety around what was next, but I just knew I wasn't going to keep doing that, you know, and um, and I got back to teaching meditation because I had done that previously and I kind of knew how to be well I had been well before. So I tried to remove things from my life and get back to the basics and take good care of myself and get sunshine and exercise and eat good, and I was fortunate to be able to not work for a bit of time and just allow things to kind of come into my life, which I think now if I talk to younger veterans and it's like, if you can create space, if you don't have space in your mind and you don't have space in your day or in your life, it's hard for kind of new things to sprout. And so I think I was able to create some space after that corporate world and get back to doing things that I kind of just innately gravitated towards and then through that, this really significant opportunity for me presented itself. Okay, yeah.

Michele Folan:

When people come to you and Beckley, is there a common theme with what they're trying to achieve?

Neil Markey:

Yeah, there is. They're seekers, you know, and they've generally done really well for themselves and have already spent, you know, some time on personal professional development and they want to be better fathers, sons, daughters, business partners. They want to appreciate life more. They want to. They know it's moving fast and they don't necessarily want to slow down, but they want to make it more meaningful, have more depth, be more present, and so we'll have people come down.

Neil Markey:

You know, our programs are explicitly non-medical, so we don't treat depression or ptsd. If people have clinical level indications, we try and point them to facilities that are more appropriate. Ours are more for the betterment of the well. So it's people that are generally doing okay but want to become more creative, more empathetic, improve cognitive function, develop some new, better habits, make some real change, process loss. So yeah, but there's this seeker thread. These are in some ways adventurers and people that this is still a little. It's not near as taboo as it was a couple years ago, but it's still a bit edgy for many people. So it's a certain type of individual to try it.

Michele Folan:

I get that, I do, and you do have to be a little bit more of an adventurous soul to kind of put yourself out there to do this. But to me, in a very simple way to explain it, it kind of cleans the pipes.

Neil Markey:

It cleans things out, for sure.

Michele Folan:

Yeah.

Neil Markey:

There's another metaphor that I like a lot.

Neil Markey:

It's if you think about like a ski mountain and then skiers go down at all day, then by the end of the day there's kind of ruts, right, and you know everything after that.

Neil Markey:

You're basically going to go ride in the ruts because you can't go across them and what these experiences do is in some ways it's like a fresh coat of snow. And so then, if you're intentional, you can lay new routes down the mountain, you can lay new thought patterns in, you can lay new emotional patterns in so that when stimulus comes into your life you react differently or have a space to be able to choose instead of this kind of well-rooted pattern. But if you don't do anything around the experience, then the likelihood that you just kind of like re-groove back into those old paths is actually quite high, because they're deep and they've been there for quite some time. Because they're deep and they've been there for quite some time. So it takes this buy-in or effort on the individual to kind of like you have to do some things around those experiences to really make change that is going to stick for more than a short period of time, if that makes sense.

Michele Folan:

Yeah, it does. Hey, Neil, we're going to take a quick break and when we get back I want to talk about kind of who your typical client is. Are you feeling overwhelmed by the changes that come with midlife, struggling with weight, energy or finding time for yourself? You're not alone. I get it because I've been there too. I specialize in helping midlife women just like you transform their health and lives through personalized nutrition and coaching that fits your real life. Together, we'll tackle those unique challenges, whether it's balancing your hormones, dealing with cravings or boosting your energy. It's not just about diets. It's about reclaiming your strength and confidence one step at a time. Check out the show notes of this episode and shoot me an email. I'd love to learn more about you and your challenges. All right, we are back. When we first started recording, I told you that my audience is typically 50 plus and you smiled. Why did you smile?

Neil Markey:

Just because it's been like a bit of a little sweet surprise for our guests to be older, and I don't know, I just uh, I just love. I love guests that are older. They're just like better guests, they're just, they're just more sure of themselves and and um, there's just like some sweetness to me in it for some reason.

Michele Folan:

Yeah, I think from my maybe this is just my perspective they kind of already know who they are, exactly Right, and so they may be a little more open to being into the whole experience. Yes, even though they're older, they may not have as much baggage Like to try to like all this stuff that they've got to get through. To be open to doing this, I guess, is what I'm trying to say. Baggage is a bad word.

Neil Markey:

No, but it's something like that. They're not holding on so tight, they're just like more free to kind of allow and learn and yeah.

Michele Folan:

And you have couples that come and do this together and you have couples that come and do this together, definitely.

Neil Markey:

Yeah, I think that most of our guests I know I don't think I know most of our guests are individuals that come down. But I think, in some ways, coming with a friend or partner or mother or daughter can be really sweet because you have this existing relationship, so there's some trust and so that's like a little bit of a lifeline. But then you can kind of come in and you have the group dynamic, which a bunch of people that you are getting to know, and then you have that relationship on the back and so, yeah, that happens. We have more. You know, we have a lot of people that come down, or even small groups that'll come down. We just are.

Neil Markey:

You have to ask a few more questions, you have to kind of make sure, which you don't want and we've seen this, as you can imagine, is like so-and-so will be, like I just need to get my husband Steve down and we're going to get him fixed, and then we're going to be good. Right, then we're going to be good and it's like so, if the relationship has a lot of turmoil or there's like a lot of challenge, you just need to be more careful and you need to kind of let the individuals know the risks there. But if the relationship's generally healthy and both people are coming down on their own because they find it exciting and they're curious and they want to learn and have an experience, and oh, by the way, we'll look at the dynamic between us two because we're going to be together, then that's perfect. That's like a really beautiful scenario.

Michele Folan:

You know, given your military background, I would imagine that safety is paramount for you. So what does that look like? What would it look like for me if I were to come down, and I would want to go through this experience?

Neil Markey:

Yeah, it's one of the best compliments I've gotten over the years that we've gotten as an organization was someone told us that it felt like an extremely loving and well-run military organization, because we just take it seriously. You know it's serious work and so you know we think about safety kind of across the entire experience for the guest, and it really starts with the screening. So you need to make sure that the individual coming down doesn't have any contraindications or psychiatric concerns or medical issues. And so we do a questionnaire and then we do a call and we're also looking just for suitability. Is this person at the right place in their personal development to be a good fit for what we do, you know, and we say no to a good chunk of people and try and point them in directions that are more appropriate. And then there's the preparation. So we teach people the basic practices, well-being skills to help navigate these experiences, to get their body in a better state when they have these experiences. So we teach meditation and mindful movement and breathwork exercises and give some thoughts on the right diet leading up to the experience. And then on site, the set and setting is really important. So we're on beautiful estates, we're away from everything. It's just us and the facilitation team.

Neil Markey:

I think we have some of the best facilitators in the world because, frankly, we pay really well and I think our facilitators really appreciate affiliating with Amanda Fielding and the Beckley Foundation, so it's good for their personal brand. So we've been able to be super selective around who we even allow to have the honor of holding these experiences and I mean we have a really high bar for our facilitators. And then the facilitator to guest ratio. I think that's really important. There's places that have huge numbers of guests and it's more just good luck. You know we it's a, you know group size is around 15. And for that we'll have five facilitators plus a nurse, plus sitters for the psilocybin session, plus the facility staff. So it's like we have a lot of personnel that are there to look after them. The dose is important, so all of our guests get a custom amount based on a discussion between them and the senior facilitator. So we make sure that that's appropriate. Now it's within a defined range, which is what you would see in clinical trials in the United States. But that's tailored. It's just really thoughtful to set in the setting and then on the back end is the integration that I think you know I'm a bit biased, obviously, but I think we have one of, if not the most thoughtful integration period where we're taking people, you know, from these experiences back into real life and trying to give them the tools that they need to help make behavior change and giving them, you know all the tools afterwards help make behavior change and giving them, you know, all the tools afterwards so we really think about it across the whole spectrum. And then, you know, we gather metrics, so we get feedback from our guests, we get feedback from our facilitators, we assess that. That rolls into our planning.

Neil Markey:

We've made different changes to our programs to try, and you know, be iterative and learn we just things that you would expect in a doctor's office or a very professionally run organization. We try and do that at a high level. Now, for people to know, there's no governing bodies around this right now. So if you're going to go have these experiences, it's good to ask the questions, because it's on the centers and the facilitators to police themselves, right, and there are amazing human beings out there that are doing great work and there are people that, frankly, should not be doing this work, and so it's just, you know, it's right now it's a bit buyer beware Right, because there's nobody, that there's no central organization that's ensuring standards or anything. Right now we're trying to set the bar high.

Michele Folan:

I love everything that you're saying because it sounds like you've you all have really done your homework and you continue to make these improvements as as you get feedback and you and you work these experiences. How many years have you been doing this now?

Neil Markey:

Beckley Retreats has been doing it for four years.

Michele Folan:

Okay, four years and you are in two locations.

Neil Markey:

Jamaica and the Netherlands. It's the two locations where we can do this work in this way completely legally and above board. That's another thing from a safety perspective that I think is important. There's places in the world where you can do this where it's legally gray, and then what happens when things are legally gray is some parts are not fully above board. So for us in Jamaica, for instance, mushroom production, cultivation and sale is completely legal, so it's easier to ensure kind of like the standards and be able to test and check and ask questions, and so we're hopeful that more places are going to legalize this type of work, but right now we're pretty limited to Jamaica and the Netherlands.

Michele Folan:

Do you feel like the United States will ever get there? Will ever get there?

Neil Markey:

Yeah, I do so in Oregon and Colorado. It's legal at the state level. Now it's complicated and we're not there for a reason because it's still very clearly federally illegal. So as a company you're very clearly breaking the Controlled Substances Act and the potential penalties are real. And then it makes it a bit harder to get insurance. All the banking gets complicated and you're breaking the law. So for us, we're planning to wape or we're watching it and we're really supportive of organizations that are kind of out front and taking a bit more risk, because I think we need to do it.

Neil Markey:

I think something could happen under this administration to reschedule mushrooms from schedule one to schedule three, and then that'll open things up significantly. And you know, all these different psychedelic compounds are different and have different risk profiles and different appropriate ways to use them. But you know, I think mushrooms different appropriate ways to use them. But you know, I think mushrooms I mean if, so long as they're done in the right way, they're quite low risk and they're natural, they're non-toxic, and so for them to be a federal schedule one, which is the same as heroin, it's completely divorced from any logic or data or anything that we know. So hopefully people will see the light and that'll change before too long.

Michele Folan:

You had mentioned. Something that I thought was kind of interesting is that once people go through this experience, you help facilitate the like, the after piece, the like. How do they, how do they integrate this experience back into their daily life? And I was curious with these transformative journeys, are you all in touch with people after they leave the netherlands or jamaica?

Neil Markey:

okay. So it's a roughly a six week integration period where we bring the group back together a few more times digitally, so resume, and then some guests will want more one-on-one, so we'll have one-on-ones with them and then, yeah, we check in with them on different intervals and then also try and bring all of our alumni together when possible to reconnect and give encouragement. And so, yeah, the answer is yes. I think you know right now we're doing the best we can because of the way the laws are. So we're flying people into these remote locations and then they're going back home. That's not optimal. Remote locations and then they're going back home that's not optimal.

Neil Markey:

I'm hopeful that if you give us enough time, these centers will be able to be near where people live. Yeah, I still think you want them in nature. I don't think you want to just do this stuff only in doctor's offices. So I think you want retreat centers where people can have the digital detox, get off the grid for a minute, really focus, but then they can go back to that city that's nearby and there's enough people that have gone through these programs that they can kind of have some community there easily in person. I think that's more optimal than you know. We're trying to fix it, but it's not perfect.

Michele Folan:

Right, but it's not perfect, right, well, and I would assume that after people go through this experience together, there's this real community and bond that they would develop.

Neil Markey:

It's true, yeah.

Michele Folan:

Okay.

Neil Markey:

It's true. Yeah, I mean I told you the stat 88% said it's the most meaningful or one of the most meaningful. And I think for many we're just used to living a certain way and having these kind of very transactional relationships. You can like work with someone for a decade and not know much about them other than like how's your weekend? Kind of like super surface, it's just very normal. And then you have an experience like this with other human beings and it's quite raw and deep and you see people and people really see you and it's moving and many of us are. We're kind of yearning that we're missing, that. We want to connect more, we want to put this facade down that maybe we've had at work and we want to just be real. And so, yeah, I think that's just that. Just that what's happening amongst the group for people is sometimes one of the most important things they take away.

Michele Folan:

I have a question. So you know we talked about. You know you do have a lot of clients, guests that are older. What's the oldest guests you've had?

Neil Markey:

We had an 80-year-old woman and an 86-year-old man husband and wife that came down for her 80th birthday.

Michele Folan:

Where were they from? And wife that came down for her 80th birthday.

Neil Markey:

Where were they from? They were from New York and they had lived like a super colorful life, lived all over the world, very successful, and they kind of came down just with this sense of adventure and they've actually been really helpful to us because they've been willing to tell their story multiple times and connect with people that are interested about doing this work, that are in that age group. And they didn't come in with this intention, but they they, since after the program they immediately stopped drinking. They just had no interest in drinking anymore. And now they have this morning kind of ritual with they do together where they drink tea and they meditate and it's just so sweet.

Neil Markey:

And they were one of the ones that said this is the one of the most meaningful things they've ever done. And it's just so hard. I mean we as an organization, it really is hard to kind of put into words these experiences that in some way are just like, they're just beyond words. You know like you have to, you have to live it, but it's um, it's um, they're really, they're really beautiful.

Michele Folan:

I have a question, since you've done this or maybe you could speak to your guests that you have at your at your two locations is meditation more meaningful now, after you go through this experience?

Neil Markey:

I've been trying to get people to meditate for like 10 years now and it's hard because meditation takes time and it's really hard to articulate the benefits if you've never experienced them. Or more spaciousness, if you've never had that, it doesn't resonate. Where fitness? We're such visual creatures. I can show you a picture of a fit person and people are like oh okay, I get that.

Neil Markey:

It's really hard with meditation because it's all internal, but there for sure is something happening. Meditation and these experiences are complementary and kind of pointing in the same direction, and so for us meditation is foundational. It's a big part of our program and, yes, many people the kind of compliance rate for meditation after a psychedelic experience is much higher. We don't know why, but it opens something up and people just understand why it's so important to sit and be for periods of time frequently. One of my friends business partners runs a veteran organization that teaches meditation for people that are coming out of the service. His benchmark of success was groups of 20 to 25, six months later check in with them If he had one or two that was still meditating. That was good for him.

Michele Folan:

He was happy.

Neil Markey:

But I mean that's an incredibly low number, but that was the reality. Now he said he's intentionally tried to seek out veterans that are having these psychedelic experiences and grab them soon after they've had the experiences and put them into these programs. And he said it's almost flipped. Really. So six months later, 20 of them are still meditating, which I just think is just so. Even these experiences, even if we never understand the mechanics of them or understand the so what we know, meditation is transformative for people. I mean you look at the research on it. We have so many years of research. It's just helpful for everything you know sleep and blood pressure and sense of wellbeing, and I mean it's just it's it's really extraordinary and what it can do for people. We just can't get people to do it Right. It just seems so boring.

Michele Folan:

I'm one of them.

Neil Markey:

And so if these experiences yeah, well, maybe come down, we'll see if.

Michele Folan:

I am the worst, like I don't know if I have ADHD, but meditating it's like I crawl out of my own skin. I have a hard time sitting in a spot for that long and trying not to think about stuff that I have to do.

Neil Markey:

You and all humans.

Michele Folan:

I am the worst and I've not done a show just on meditation. I need to probably do that this year, but I know I've got some work to do.

Neil Markey:

Well, I can help you with meditation. I think I've got some different techniques. I think sometimes the way you're describing it I've heard people describe it before and there's actually some simple things that you can do to reframe it that maybe will make it a bit easier, so we can maybe catch up sometime.

Michele Folan:

All right, we'll chat about that. I want to know, though so I know these experiences are very spiritual how have you tried to kind of navigate, keeping them very spiritual but still kind of keeping this as a business, because clearly you've got to kind of straddle both sides of this?

Neil Markey:

Yeah, I think it's the middle path. I mean, we're a public benefit corporation, which I just firmly believe is a good model, and we need more companies that have a dual mission. And so I think, if you look at capitalism at its extremes, the big, huge international behemoths that maybe have lost their way and lost heart and are just trying to maximize profits for their shareholders. Nothing else matters. Literally by law, if you try and do something as a for-profit company, your shareholders can sue you if it's not maximizing their dollars. So I think there's something wrong with that model at its extremes. I think capitalism actually works really well locally, but once it gets to a certain size or then it starts to get or kind of loses heart, loses its connection with the community and its employees and it just becomes so mechanical then it gets a little scary. On the other side of the spectrum is nonprofits, which are not without their challenges either. There's 40,000, four zero thousand veteran nonprofits in the United States.

Michele Folan:

Oh gosh, right, I mean yeah, I had no idea.

Neil Markey:

Like a thousand percent almost. I mean, how does that? Does it? So you can't tell me that all of the philanthropy is getting down to the people that actually need it because it's so fragmented. It's a mess.

Michele Folan:

It's an absolute mess.

Neil Markey:

And then there's all these silly rules in the nonprofit world where you can't pay your people really well, because it's only about the mission and they can't have equity, they can't build financial independence, you can't pay commissions financial independence, you can't pay commissions. And so to me that models it works in some ways, but it's not without its flaws, and so I really just believe in these middle path companies. I think Patagonia is such a good example. The world needs products and services, and so Patagonia sells products that the world needs. They try and do it in a really thoughtful way, sourcing it from the right place, making it really high quality so you don't just throw it away. They do repairs, so they're super ethical in that way, and then they have a dual mission they want to do good things for the planet and it's not just window dressing kind of.

Neil Markey:

BS, it's legit. They give real money to environmental causes, and so to me, that's a better model. They're self-sustaining, they're generating on their own, they don't have to keep looking for donor dollars every year. They can put strategic plans together, they can hire really good talent. And so to me, what would Spirit want more in this world? To kind of create some more equilibrium and some more balance. It would want more companies that are trying to find that middle path and manage and be mindful of all the different stakeholders there are to be thoughtful of. Companies back in the day used to just have more inherent felt responsibility for their employees. Now it's kind of gotten away from that. Same for the communities. So I think we just kind of need to veer back. So I think there you can have this, but there is a tension. But I think it's a healthy tension.

Michele Folan:

I think it's a really healthy tension tension, but I think it's a healthy tension, you know, I think it's a really healthy tension. So I have a question for you. This is more of a, this is kind of a personal question what is one? And besides meditation don't say meditation, because I know you meditate what is one of your core pillars of self-care?

Neil Markey:

after meditation. It's cheating then well, I do think that's foundational. And then the next level is a few things. But um, if you made me pick one, I would probably say, like exercise, moving the body, okay, but I would also put in there good connections, purposeful work, sunshine, healthy diet.

Michele Folan:

Yeah, yeah, you're singing my tune. I love all those things.

Neil Markey:

They're all good things.

Michele Folan:

Thank you. Thank you for sharing those, Neil. Where can the listeners find you and find Beckley Retreats?

Neil Markey:

Yeah, we're online. So if you Google Beckley Retreats, we'll come up. It's just beckleyretreats. com. Google Beckley Retreats will come up. It's just beckleyretreatscom. We're on Instagram and Facebook and LinkedIn and we do. You know we have a. If you send us an email, welcome at Beckley Retreats or info at Beckley Retreats, we're super responsive. There's a place on our website where you can book a one-on-one call. So you know there's plenty of availability for those, and we know that these experiences for many they're new, and so people have a lot of questions and it's a big decision to kind of make an investment like this and come do one of these, and so we'll take as much time as needed. It is not uncommon for us to have two or three calls with someone and then they want us to speak with their husband or wife, or then they want to speak with the facilitator. We're happy to kind of do all those things so that people have everything they need to feel really good about coming down.

Michele Folan:

I love that.

Neil Markey:

I love that. Yeah, we have chat on our website and I'm like we should put that this is actually a real human and they can text us. It's not a bot. It's not a bot. We're not bots. I'm like that's a unique selling point.

Michele Folan:

It is actually.

Neil Markey:

You can actually talk to a person.

Michele Folan:

Yeah.

Neil Markey:

Yeah, we're trying to kind of keep it really thoughtful and connect in a real way and not just, you know, be super transactional about it.

Michele Folan:

Yeah Well, thank you for sharing that and thank you for bringing this topic to the show Again. I just want to put things out there for people who may really want to dig a little deeper, and you know whether you're struggling with something or you just want to dig a little deeper and you know whether you're you're struggling with something or you're you just want to take your, your mind to a new place and and, as like I said, clear the pipes.

Michele Folan:

You know, I think this is something to consider, and so, Neil Markey, thank you so much for being a guest today.

Neil Markey:

Thank you. Thank you for having me.

Michele Folan:

Hey, thanks for tuning in. Please rate and review the show where you listen to the podcast. And did you know that Asking for a Friend is available now to listen on YouTube? You can subscribe to the podcast there as well. Your support is appreciated and it helps others find the show. Thank you.