Asking for a Friend - Health, Fitness & Personal Growth Tips for Women in Midlife

Ep.132 Reviving Midlife Relationships: Dr. Jennifer Gunsaullus on Intimacy, Communication, and Embracing Vulnerability

• Michele Henning Folan • Episode 132

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Ready to reignite the spark in your relationship?

Join Jenn Gunsaullus, PhD, a renowned sociologist, speaker, and author, as she shares her expert insights on transforming intimacy and communication in midlife. Dr. Gunsaullus has spent years studying sexual health and intimacy, evolving from a peer educator to a leading intimacy coach. In this empowering conversation, she will explain how emotional vulnerability can rekindle passion and deepen connections in relationships.

Dr. Gunsaullus offers valuable advice for women navigating midlife relationships, focusing on self-love, mindfulness, and embracing your body’s natural pleasures—no matter your age. She challenges societal beauty standards and encourages women to prioritize their own well-being and satisfaction. With practical tips on how to foster open, supportive conversations, she shows how couples can create stronger emotional connections that reignite intimacy.

In addition, Dr. Gunsaullus discusses the generational shift in attitudes toward sex and intimacy, revealing how even younger generations can struggle to build true emotional bonds. Through her experience, she offers actionable strategies for overcoming these challenges, emphasizing the importance of self-awareness and mutual understanding.

Explore the myths and realities of sex in long-term relationships and learn how to navigate the unique challenges that come with aging. Dr. Gunsaullus provides tools to communicate openly about desires, embrace the changes that come with time, and create an environment where both partners feel supported and connected.

It’s never too late to transform your relationship. Visit drjennsden.com to access a wealth of resources, including Dr. Gunsaullus’s book and podcast, and continue your journey toward more fulfilling, passionate, and rejuvenated relationships.

You can find Jenn Gunsaullus, PhD. at:
https://www.drjennsden.com/
https://www.instagram.com/drjennsden/
Check out Dr. Jenn's book:
From Madness to Mindfulness: Reinventing Sex for Women

Send us a text

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Michele Folan:

Health, wellness, fitness and everything in between. We're removing the taboo from what really matters in midlife. I'm your host, ichelle Follin, and this is Asking for a Friend. Our sexual and intimate relationships. They morph and change, but does that mean they can't be fulfilling and meaningful? Are you ready for a life without intimacy with your partner? Do you feel guilty because you just don't feel the same desires that you once did? Will a lack of physical connection drive a wedge between you?

Michele Folan:

These are fair questions to ask in this age group because, based on my conversations with podcast guests, friends and acquaintances, this is a reality. And let's not assume that it's always the female in the relationship who lacks a sex drive. But could more communication help restore some of that missing passion that once created wonderful connection between partners? Dr Jenn Gunsaullus is a sociologist, speaker and author of the book From Madness to Mindfulness Reinventing Sex for Women. She wants all women to be able to find their sexiness again by making sense of this incredible phase we call midlife. Dr Jenn Gunsaullus, welcome to Asking for a Friend.

Jenn Gunsaullus, PhD:

Thank you, Michele. What a beautiful introduction. These topics are so complicated and important and relevant.

Michele Folan:

Yes, very much so, and so tell the audience a little bit more about you. We were having such a nice chat before we started recording, and I think this would be a nice segue into this chat. Yeah.

Jenn Gunsaullus, PhD:

So I'll give a little history and background. I actually grew up in the suburbs of Philadelphia in Pennsylvania, but I've lived in San Diego now for the past 20 years and my PhD in sociology. And I actually first got started doing work in this field over 30 years ago when I was an undergrad back in Pennsylvania, because I started going around to the dorms as a sexual health peer educator and doing condom demonstrations and safer sex talks and healthy relationship talks. So it's funny and that is, you know, something I did as an extracurricular activity to cause it looked fine, you get to talk about sex and you learn public speaking skills. And then I became super fascinated about how people make decisions around sex shame, fear, gender differences, what we're talking about, what we're not talking about.

Jenn Gunsaullus, PhD:

So it was actually that experience that helped, that shaped my career path, moving forward as a sociologist and yeah. So then, yeah, I've been in San Diego for 20 years and I have a private practice relationship and intimacy coaching for individuals and couples and for the past 16 years or so. And then my real passion is exactly where I started over 30 years ago standing in front of groups and doing public speaking and creating safe spaces to learn and laugh and feel uncomfortable together around these topics that are endlessly important but endlessly complicated Absolutely, and so my question was going to be you know how did you get into this?

Michele Folan:

you know how did you get into this, but it sounds like it was a really natural kind of transformation to?

Jenn Gunsaullus, PhD:

Yeah, well, because I became. You know, I was 19 or 20 at the time and I became fascinated about this topic and saw the importance of it right away, Even though, you know, I was raised a good girl in Pennsylvania. I was raised Catholic in a very loving, great, supportive household, but we didn't talk about sex and I was very much a late bloomer. So to be standing up and talking about these topics was a really big deal and learning about them but yeah. But then it's evolved over time because that's where I started in sexual health.

Jenn Gunsaullus, PhD:

My dissertation to get my PhD in sociology was around HIV prevention programs targeting adult women. So that was all the sexual health, public health realm. And then it's evolved over the years. And now where I've landed at this point is what I'm most passionate about is emotional intimacy and that willingness to realize what patterns of behavior we have and what walls that we have up and how to build trust in ourselves and knowledge of ourselves and compassion towards ourselves, to be able to let those walls down and create spaces where others can do the same, and so we can do that in partnership with others, so that real depth of vulnerability and authenticity as applied to sexual context is my real passion. Now, Okay.

Michele Folan:

I love this and I want to back up because you said something in your introduction about growing up in a Catholic household, as did I, and I'm curious how many women out there have had similar experiences that you and I have had, where we didn't talk about sex, and having a discussion with your partner about sex can still be uncomfortable, even as an adult.

Jenn Gunsaullus, PhD:

Yes, in as an adult, yes, and what's interesting is, even as the younger generations. If you were to look at, like Gen Z in their late teens and early twenties, sex is so normalized on social media and in so many ways, and kink and polyamory and positive body image and all of these amazing things you'd think that they'd be having the best sex. But that vulnerability piece, that ability to bare your soul and let your walls down and open yourself up and be vulnerable in the way that someone could judge you or stigmatize you or shame you, we still don't have good skills around that. So I would say all ages, all generations, still struggle with it. They have their own, it's got its own flavors depending on how things were. You know what generation they were raised in.

Jenn Gunsaullus, PhD:

But yeah, it's so interesting that folks will sometimes. You know you could be married for 25 years to somebody and you could strike up a conversation with a stranger on an airplane and something just clicks and you're able to be vulnerable about things you're struggling with with this stranger more so than you are with your wife or your husband, your spouse, because you have more to lose with somebody that you've built a whole life with and that you really care what they think of you. So instead of you know, in some ways we have more safety with those closest to us, but then we also have less safety. It's very curious.

Michele Folan:

Yeah. And then there's also we think about okay, midlife is really great. You know we're empty nesters. We may have a little more money in the bank. You know we have more free time perhaps not everybody, but we may have more free time.

Jenn Gunsaullus, PhD:

And again, it doesn't always line up with what's going on in our personal lives right, or with your hormones, or with your aging parents, or with just random, you know, body changes or sense of purpose or all these things it's. It's. Sometimes for some folks it matches up. I mean, cause I know sometimes women, especially post 50, post menopause, kids out of the house, they're like with the, I think, with the drop in estrogen and with the shift sociologically and sort of what's expected of them as women Now, they're like no fucks given, like it's my life, I'm making the choices, I'm not taking care of anyone else right now. This is my time in life, so it can be difficult to get that all to align, but when it does, I know women are like I feel so fulfilled and happy right now.

Michele Folan:

Yeah, and we have to call out the obvious. The hormone issues. Yes, and we've covered that topic a lot on the show, good. But when you do have a client who comes to you and their sexual desire is rock bottom, yeah, how do you counsel that person to get started? Yeah, Well.

Jenn Gunsaullus, PhD:

So what's interesting is I actually see this at all ages. This is because, first, I mean just, let's just say, in the context of long-term relationships, I see this at all ages. I've seen this with, say, let's talk, women, specifically women who are 25 and women who are 55 or older and everything in between. So there's something specific to a long-term relationship itself that the neurochemicals of desire, all that newness and mystery and excitement, and that thing, you know, those feelings that are amazing and make us want to stay up all night and bare our souls. That fades over time, which is probably not a bad thing, because we'd never sleep and nobody would take care of children and nobody would go to jobs while we'd be in bliss all the time. So that makes evolutionary-wise, why that would drop off. But then most of us don't know what to do with that and we think we're broken as women if we're the lower desire people and our partner feels undesired. And then you throw in shifts around pregnancy, post-pregnancy and post-birth, PMS changes and then perimenopause that can be long time period of just shifts in hormones and so it's so unpredictable. And then your vagina and your vaginal lubrication, all of that's changing and then you shift, that you're not feeling great in your body and there's not a natural boost of ovulation, of feeling desire during that time period. So there are so many factors that get added on top of what we can already struggle with in a long-term relationship. That's just totally normal physiologically. But what I keep seeing now as a 51-year-old woman myself and so I'm experiencing this and I'm seeing this in the research and anecdotally perimenopause feels like a time period there's so much powerlessness, things that we used to be able to know how to drop some extra weight or how to get the energy or how to get the sleep we need or how to voice our concerns. There's just, there's this unpredictability, because we are truly and it sucks I hate to say this as a sociologist and feminist we are so much more run by hormones than we would like to believe or acknowledge men and women all around as animals we are.

Jenn Gunsaullus, PhD:

So I would say it's just a. You know, I was gonna say it's a double whammy in perimenopause, but it's a triple whammy, it's a quadruple whammy, and then, once you go through that phase and you end up in menopause, you don't know, women end up in all sorts of places. Some women are actually like no, I actually have some libido and I don't have to worry about pregnancy anymore and the kids are out of the home and I have more free time and this feels great. And others are like, yeah, no, don't touch me, don't come near me, I have no interest and it hurts. So it's just, it's powerless. I came to that I was teaching a workshop or a small group retreat a few months ago and we were all being very vulnerable and I shared and I realized that the heart of the angst I had around perimenopause and my own shifts and how they're impacting my relationship is that it feels powerless.

Michele Folan:

And that's a really crappy feeling Well and a lot of times when you're in perimenopause, you don't realize that is where these feelings are coming from. No one, no one, told me about perimenopause right, and I wasn't equipped to discuss it because I didn't have the tools. I now, being 60, I've got more confidence to be able to talk about those things that I'm going through or in those physical changes.

Jenn Gunsaullus, PhD:

Yeah.

Michele Folan:

But not at 45. Right.

Jenn Gunsaullus, PhD:

I wasn't there, right? And the only reason I had awareness around it is because this is my field, right? So I'm always talking to different people and you know a video series I had in the past. I used to interview guests and I learned about it that way and just as connected to my field, that at 42, when I started seeing some shifts that I was like, oh, this actually could be perimenopause and everyone's like what's perimenopause? That term was barely being used and now, just in the past year, it has really picked up steam. So, but and I want to say something because it's interesting, so I've been watching this.

Jenn Gunsaullus, PhD:

So, but and I want to say something because it's interesting, so I've been watching this, particularly just the last six months there has been A big shift on social media that I've seen and people talking about all of the variety of symptoms that can be part of perimenopause and leading up to menopause.

Jenn Gunsaullus, PhD:

And I think this is invaluable to know that, oh, that weird sleep thing where you're up for two hours in the middle of the night Absolutely could be a perimenopause.

Jenn Gunsaullus, PhD:

Your achy joints, in a weird way, perimenopause, you know, and on and on, all of these different factors can be, and what I fear is what I've seen with other things, when you go from not talking about something and then all of a sudden the pendulum swings to the opposite side and then it's like everything's perimenopause and everyone should be on hormone replacement therapy, and I don't think that's the right place to land either. So what I want folks is to honor and question like, oh, could this be part of hormone changes? Let me see a doctor, a gynecologist, let me do some research and let me not just assume that I could take a pill, put a patch on and take a pill, and that will solve all my problems. So what I don't want to lose is critical thinking in all of this, as we're launching into this, like menopause is having its heyday yay, finally, it's finally a hot topic, pun intended.

Michele Folan:

Exactly. Hey, Jenn, we're going to take a quick break and we come back. I do want to talk about those other body changes that we mentioned a little bit early. We'll be right back, We cut out processed foods and alcohol and get our bodies moving, but there are some things that are a little harder for us to influence. Welcome to midlife, where estrogen declines, belly fat takes center stage and muscle mass starts to make its exit. I'm not trying to paint a bleak picture, but the midlife woman's needs are different than what worked for us in our 30s and 40s.

Michele Folan:

When it comes to fitness and nutrition, there are science-backed strategies, proven to move the needle and help us look and feel our best now and lay a healthy foundation for the next 30 plus years. It's called Faster Way and is the exact program I used to get fit in my late 50s. Join me for my next group coaching round. Shoot me an email at mfolanfasterway@gmailcom or go to the show notes of this episode. Or go to the show notes of this episode. Okay, welcome back to the show. Everybody, I want to ask you, Jenn, as a health and nutrition coach, when women come to me, they are wanting to get fit and be healthy, but they're not feeling confident and the way they should to be in an intimate relationship with their partner? And how do we get women to love themselves and appreciate their bodies so that they can get their mind in that space?

Jenn Gunsaullus, PhD:

Yeah, I would, and that is truly a lifelong difficult journey for many women and most women, because there's always something that's not quite right with our bodies and it gets harder as we age. So the one thing I would say is shift actually to what feels good in your body. Shift to the actual sensuality of it, the pleasure of it, the sensations of it, because our brain if we're trying to argue with our brain in the middle of it like I'm beautiful and your brain's like bullshit, that's really, and then we get stuck in that battle. What I love is like let's just drop out of our heads, because our heads is where the stories of the bullshit that we've learned from society is where that lives, and we will never win those stories. So once and there is absolutely like I have a rewriting our sexual stories workshop that I do with women sometimes and I actually have an online course around that, if that's of interest to anybody so combating those stories and writing new stories is absolutely powerful and that takes time and work to do, and so I do encourage that In the moment of a sexual encounter, just try to get out of your head and get present in your body, and so this is a mindfulness practice of, I say, tapping into your six senses, so your five senses that we're used to knowing, but also what are you feeling inside?

Jenn Gunsaullus, PhD:

Because that will then, and then a thought will come up, or anxiety will come up, or you'll judge how you look and then you're like nope, thank you. I hear you not paying attention to you right now. I'm choosing to focus on what feels good right now, and maybe it's the music you're listening to, or how the sheets feel, or how your partner smells, or the warmth of their skin against you and the sensations inside your body. What are you feeling in your genitals? What are you feeling in your breast? What warmth are you feeling in your abdomen? What loving feelings are you feeling towards your partner? Truly, keep, and it is a mindfulness practice which is just, over and over again, training your executive functioning to pay attention to where you want it to pay attention to, which is your pleasure and sensations, and appreciating being able to feel good and connect in that moment.

Michele Folan:

And I think we as a gender are harder on ourselves than we should be. I believe our male partners or female partners, I should say, that want us to want them in the same way and they look at us as a sexual being, even if we've got an extra 15 pounds, right, I mean.

Jenn Gunsaullus, PhD:

Overall. I mean, everyone's come across a male client who has some issues with weight gain with his female partner, but that is few and far between like by over 95% of you know statistically. What I've seen over the years is men are like oh yeah, you know she's gained some weight, but like she still freaking, turns me on and like it's hot and I'm like, I am just happy and appreciative when I get to be with that body and feel it and feel her curves and dive in. And what they most want is to feel wanted by their partner and to feel and experience passion in their partner. And that's hard right. If we're in our heads and we're judging ourselves and if our body isn't naturally doesn't have the neurochemicals of desire going on, that's a tough thing to manufacture. However, circling back to your last question, the more we focus on being in the moment and focusing on what is feeling good, we can more genuinely show up with positive emotions. Yeah, and it's a practice. It absolutely is a practice.

Michele Folan:

Yeah, I know, but how do we get on the same page and we're not? I guess getting on the same page is a bad term because yeah, tell me what you mean by that, because we're not. Men and women, in particular, are going to be at a different place, right, but how do we talk and have this communication so that we understand that we're not going to be exactly the same?

Jenn Gunsaullus, PhD:

Yeah, I think. I mean there's a lot of directions to go. So I mean I was like, oh, I have so many places I go. So the first thing I'm going to say is normalizing conversations around these topics. And if sexuality and physical intimacy is a topic that matters in your marriage but not one that you talk about much, I say once a week.

Jenn Gunsaullus, PhD:

I often tell people Sunday nights schedule 15 minutes, that's it. It's not that long. And if every Sunday, for 15 minutes, you have blocked off time where you're going to talk about these uncomfortable topics so they don't get brushed under the rug, you start to normalize talking about it. You don't have to fix anything in those 15 minutes, but you do need to show up non-defensive and non-judgmental and compassionate and each time you can have a topic to bring up you could be like okay, this week we're going to talk about, I'm going to talk about all my body changes and the last time that I actually felt desire, which wasn't a long time ago, but why I felt desire. I mean you can find questions to answer.

Jenn Gunsaullus, PhD:

I give worksheets to some of the clients I work with. You could talk about if somebody had a sexual dream. You can talk about what feels good and why, how you like your partner to turn you on, what turns you off, what helps get you in the mood. You could make it part of something I like to call happy naked fun time, where you just cuddle together naked or mostly clothed, and you're just normalizing physical connection between you, but without any specific goals or expectations. What we're looking to do is to build comfort with discomfort around these topics and so that you don't get to the point, you know, like it's happened to me over the years so many times folks come in and they're like, wow, we don't know how we got to this point in our marriage and I'm thinking, yeah, you needed to be in here at least 10 years ago because there's such a wall between you.

Jenn Gunsaullus, PhD:

But if every week or every month you're checking in with these topics and making sure they don't get brushed under the rug, and then one important thing is make sure you are focusing on what you appreciate about your partner, so it doesn't feel like you're coming in with a laundry list of I don't like this, I don't like this, don't do this. This isn't working. I'm not turned on by that. This, don't do this, this isn't working. I'm not turned on by that. Don't do it, this is horrible.

Jenn Gunsaullus, PhD:

So really dig deep and be like when you do that, that feels nice, I can relax with that. Or I appreciate when you do that. Or I like when we can laugh in this. Or I realized I like this position better. I used to love that position. That one hurts now and I'm sorry, I know that's disappointing to you, but can we try this one?

Jenn Gunsaullus, PhD:

So it's intentionality and it's vulnerability and it's creating structure around it and then, once you start doing this more, then you could start being like, okay, what's something new we could try? And let's schedule a time in our calendar for this week only for a half hour or 45 minutes, not long. Let's just create the space for intimacy time. Or, again, like I said, happy, naked, fun time and see what unfolds when we create the space for it. But it really is. It's a very fine line of the lower desire person taking a leap of faith that their body can be turned on and the higher desire person really being mindful of their disappointments and their fear of rejection and not being too goal-oriented. So it's a lot of reframing and awareness.

Michele Folan:

That was a lot of information I just threw because it's complicated, yeah, so I know that you mentioned the couple that they were so far into this.

Jenn Gunsaullus, PhD:

There were so many walls of resentment built between them and lack of communication.

Michele Folan:

Right, and I think it's important to point out and this was great advice is that it's okay to say you know the things that have built up, that you maybe resent or whatever that have kind of been a turnoff, but also make sure that you're bringing some positive things to the conversation, because it can't be just a bitch fest.

Jenn Gunsaullus, PhD:

No, and the thing is, in particular, nobody likes that. But that is one of the things I've consistently seen with men in long-term relationships they want to feel appreciated. They want to feel appreciated and acknowledged for what they're bringing to the table and not feel that everything is always just the like oh, can you take the trash out? Can you do this thing? Can you fix that thing? You haven't done that. Hey, you haven't asked me about my day. What's going on? What about that vacation we were going to take? Yada, yada. And that speaks to something called the negativity bias. For humans, and especially in long-term relationships, it's super easy to focus on what's not working, what's not happening, instead of pausing and being like oh yeah, there's also really good things. Let me make sure I'm intentionally acknowledging and thanking my partner, or speaking to their strengths or when they look good or what you admire about them. So, again, it's this intentionality of what you're communicating about and how you're communicating.

Michele Folan:

I will say men in particular. They may not always be comfortable having these conversations. Yes, how do you get through that first step of encouraging them to want to talk about it?

Jenn Gunsaullus, PhD:

So a couple of things. The first thing that comes to mind, one thing that does that can work, especially if they're the higher, if they're the higher desire person. Saying so, I know sex matters to you more than it matters to me, and I am working on this and this is what this is about. I am trying to. I have discomfort or fear or shame or embarrassment around these topics. I feel guilty, I don't know what's happening with my body. It's doing wacky shit, and I love you and I know this matters to you, and so this is something I'd like to try to do to normalize us talking about it. So I think often, if a man is a higher desire man and he is the higher desire person in the relationship and realizes that, oh, this is about having more sex, yay, so that for some men will work.

Jenn Gunsaullus, PhD:

Another thing is say I get this is awkward, this is uncomfortable, but that is at the core of all personal and relationship growth. The status quo isn't working for us right now, and we know it. The only way to change that is to try new things that feel uncomfortable until they start to become more comfortable. I mean, that's truly the only way we make any change in life and it's like learning a new instrument or learning a new sport. It's awkward at first, you're not good at it, you stumble. We feel it's a humbling experience. So it's just like learning anything new. So you're learning new ways of communicating around topics in aging bodies and in an aging relationship.

Michele Folan:

Yeah, and we're also learning new ways to pleasure each other too. Yes, because, like you said before, sometimes what worked for you 20 years ago may not be frankly, what worked last week might not work right now.

Jenn Gunsaullus, PhD:

Truly, it can shift from week to week and month to month, yeah, and that's a big hormonal shift, but that can also be what we've eaten, how hydrated we are, how tired we are, how connected we feel, how loved we are, how stressed we are, et cetera. So, but being able to normalize dialogue around these topics and, bit by bit, no, you know, one of the things I give couples who are struggling, who have had a long time period of not having much sexual activity or touching each other, and it's rather fraught because one's afraid of getting rejected, and the other one's afraid of, like, giving feedback, because then their partner is sensitive and takes it personally, and then they don't like what their partner does and wants their partner to do other things, but their partner, like, is resentful of having to, you know, bring a vibrator in or something to help with orgasm. So, all of those components, one of the things I give is there's some worksheets where you, you actually, in a rather clinical way, touch in in different ways of like deep touch, light touch, padding different areas of your partner's body and they literally give you like, on a one to 10 scale, like feedback of like, oh I like that, oh I don't like that, oh that one's weird. And then you do a version of it with your mouth and with your tongue in different areas and it's not in the sexual areas. But then, if they've been comfortable doing that, they've gotten the feedback, they've normalized it, they feel like a team working together and it's normal to give feedback and they want to know what works and not works and they don't take that personally.

Jenn Gunsaullus, PhD:

Then they can move into doing that with their genitals and with their breasts and yeah, and, and you know, ideally I mean often when I work with couples this activity will get pushed off multiple sessions or they might do a first half hour of it because I tell them, break it into segments and then they never come back because it is, it's awkward and vulnerable. But the couples that are willing to do it and get that feedback, they just have a much higher likelihood of moving forward in a positive way because they've been willing, it's they've, they've practiced courage to be vulnerable with each other in that way and and humility as well, and those are incredibly vulnerable with each other in that way, and humility as well, and those are incredibly. Courage and humility are incredibly important traits to cultivate anytime we're looking to shift something with our partner sexually.

Michele Folan:

One of the questions I had was what are some of the common myths and assumptions made around sexuality in midlife?

Jenn Gunsaullus, PhD:

I think some of the main myths that we have around sexuality overall just carry through and one being you know we can read each other's minds sex should be easy. If it's not happening, it means our partner doesn't love us or that our relationship's broken. Or if my partner doesn't want to have sex with me, it means they're not attractive. I am not attractive to them anymore. I don't know. Clearly, once people are in long-term relationships, they're like oh yeah, this feels different than it did 10 years ago, 20 years ago, but I don't know that folks are prepared for that coming in, and so then they experience it and then they're not sure is this normal? Is there something wrong with us? And so I think the yeah, some of the myths is like this shouldn't be that hard, or we shouldn't have to work on this.

Jenn Gunsaullus, PhD:

Or yeah, and it really is this like romanticized Hollywood notion, like if you really loved me or if this was a really strong relationship, the sex should work out, thankfully. But for like relationship therapists and counselors saying this belief that is like, oh no, if there's something wrong in the sex life, it's just indicative that there's something wrong somewhere else in the relationship and that's total BS. It can be, absolutely. It could be related to resentments or anger issues or hurt feelings or lack of trust. Absolutely.

Jenn Gunsaullus, PhD:

But so often there's so many components of our bodies and sexuality and sexual connection that are its own thing that you can have this amazing respectful relationship with your partner and you're a great team and you trust each other, you love each other, you've raised kids, you have this life, you travel well together and your body's changed, and you just don't feel like sex and you don't have the skills, because where would you have learned skills to know how to talk about difficult things like this? And then you tried something and it didn't work. And then you tried something else and it didn't work. And then you're afraid to try new things because then your partner keeps getting disappointed and doesn't trust you anyway. So you just stop trying. So all of that is normal. All of that is normal. I think all of our myths around romanticized relationships and love interfere with people being able to do something. Do something about it.

Michele Folan:

And we all know couples who are already sleeping in separate bedrooms.

Jenn Gunsaullus, PhD:

And it doesn't have to be a bad thing. No, that doesn't have to be a bad thing if you're truly prioritizing sleep and your partner snores or you need different temperatures. It does not at all have to be, because sleep is truly one of our absolutely top, most important things for a healthy relationship and a healthy sex life, and I agree, yeah, and we're on the same page there or there's.

Michele Folan:

You know, maybe your husband falls asleep at 8 o'clock at night in the chair, whatever, and I think it's okay to normalize some of that stuff, right. I mean, it's just that and that may be a very workable situation for that couple, absolutely, and that should be okay. Then we shouldn't have this unreachable standard. If you will that maybe.

Jenn Gunsaullus, PhD:

That's just not what's important to them as a couple, you mean in terms of you being in the beds together, you mean in terms of sex, and if they're not having sex, not having sex, yeah. So, and that is a really that's always my starting point when I have couples coming in, because normally when I work with folks it's mismatched desire levels. You have a higher desire and a lower desire person, because it's almost impossible not to have that in a long-term relationship. It's almost impossible to be equal. Every once in a while you get two folks that maintain high desire, or sometimes I get two folks that have low desire, and what matters is is it related?

Jenn Gunsaullus, PhD:

The main question I ask is do you miss it? Is this a problem? Is this a problem for you individually? Is this a problem for your relationship? And sometimes it is, and sometimes somebody really misses it and they miss that specialness of connection that brought them as a couple, or they miss the pleasure and feeling good. And so then we look at is it stress? Is it hormone levels? Is it sleep? Are there other factors going? Have they felt rejected? Are there other factors going? Are they? Have they felt rejected? Are there other factors going on?

Jenn Gunsaullus, PhD:

But truly, sometimes two folks are like they tell me like well, how often. Would you like to be having sex each week or each month or whenever? And they look at each other and they're like twice a week, like, do you want sex twice a week? Is your body asking for sex twice a week? Or do you feel like you should have sex twice a week? And then they'll look at each other and they're like well, we feel like we should be doing that, so I was like so.

Jenn Gunsaullus, PhD:

So then, as a sociologist, I pull apart those layers and say where did you learn that? What does that mean to you? What else, if your body's not asking for sex, could we create something like happy, naked, naked fun time where you're still getting intimacy, you're still getting skin to skin contact. Maybe there is some sexual desire that comes up in that space and you can play with that. But yeah, you could be an incredibly lasting, fulfilling, loving, amazing relationship and not be having any sexual activity because you have intimacy in so many other ways and that's okay. But there's a lot of layers to pull back to see if that's the case for you in your relationship.

Michele Folan:

I do have a question how do you work with couples individually? Obviously you do individual and couples therapy, but do you do remote or is it all in person?

Jenn Gunsaullus, PhD:

Yeah, actually almost exclusively. Everything I do is Zoom now since COVID times. Yeah, I occasionally have a handful of folks who come into my home office, but those are folks I've seen over the years, but almost never. And actually most of my clients are not in San Diego. They're around the US and occasionally around the world, but yeah, everything's over Zoom now.

Michele Folan:

Do you have a success story you'd want to share?

Jenn Gunsaullus, PhD:

You know what? It's funny because often when folks have gotten what they need from coaching with me, like they're good, they're like, hey, we're good. I was like, yeah, you guys are doing great, why don't you just reach out to me if you need a maintenance session or something like that? And then I don't hear from them. So I, which is great. So, and for all I know, they got divorced or for all I know, they're having they're living their best life, and so I only know when they reach back out. And so I've had folks reach out to me over LinkedIn or they send an email or or run into them somewhere. And so it'll be seven years later and this is the most amazing thing when folks are like, oh my God, dr Jenn, like, literally, this one woman said she goes I don't know if you remember us, but you saved our marriage and now our boys are off to college and we're still doing great. And I'm like, but I wouldn't, I wouldn't know. I've had other folks come back and after seven years or so, they're like, hey, we're running into a problem again. We've been doing great, we wanted to come in and see you. They'll tell me, so it just delights me. They'll say we'll be, we'll start to have an argument and they'll be like wait, wait, wait, wait. What would Dr Jenn tell us to do right now? Okay, wait, she would tell us to use the mindfulness triangle, or she would tell us to do this. So they're like we still learn all those coaching skills you learned. So that's so.

Jenn Gunsaullus, PhD:

The main thing is, I don't know what happens long term. Every once in a while I have clients that come in it's usually when they're younger clients that there is something. That's just a miscommunication, that they misunderstood what the other one wanted sexually or what they believed or what they thought. And then, when I pull out and we talk about masturbation and fantasies and their desires and what feels good and what doesn't, and I give them a safe space to do that and I ask the right questions, they'll look at each other and they'll be like wait, wait, you want that also, I want that. I didn't think you wanted that. And so every once, in only two sessions or something, we can find out that there was just a misunderstanding, a miscommunication, because sex is difficult to talk about and we make assumptions all the time and don't realize it.

Michele Folan:

And if you're a young couple, you don't know how to have those conversations. Necessarily I mean no.

Jenn Gunsaullus, PhD:

I mean the difference is that younger generations it's much more normalized to talk about mental health topics and relationship topics and to seek a coach or a therapist or a counselor, so it is more normal. And for young men that's becoming normalized for young men in a way it never was for older generations of men. So there is a more like. I have a handful of clients that are in their 20s and it's young women. Their awareness around their emotions and taking responsibility for themselves, and occasionally young men more in like their early 30s, is so high. The older generations have none of it. So they have all this languaging of personal growth and awareness and their emotions and these personal growth books that they read and how their brains work, and so there's just a much heightened level of that and that this is worthy to talk about, even if it's uncomfortable. Oh good. So yeah, it's very interesting. As a sociologist, I love studying generational differences around these topics because they're truly strong differences between the generations.

Michele Folan:

Well, I can say for me at 30, I wasn't having those conversations. Trust me, yes.

Jenn Gunsaullus, PhD:

No and for sure right. So if we're looking what 30 years ago that was the early 90s still not. I mean we had just come out of the 80s. I think about the shows I was raised on, like the Dukes of Hazzard and the Love Boat, and they were just so horribly gendered and their gender role socialization. We didn't have very good role models for talking about these topics.

Michele Folan:

Well then we don't have this could be a topic for a whole nother show. Then we can talk about our mothers and how they were raised, and oh God.

Jenn Gunsaullus, PhD:

I don't, I'm not going there, I'm not going there.

Michele Folan:

Dr Jenn, what is one of your core pillars of self-care?

Jenn Gunsaullus, PhD:

The first one that comes to mind is something I already mentioned sleep, sleep. And so I have for a long time known I need way more sleep than the average person and I wake up a ton and I don't, so I don't sleep soundly. And then you add in now perimenopause, so, and that I travel a lot for work and pleasure and some of that international like I just came back from a two week trip in Europe, so more it's harder and harder and I really need to create cutoff points and try not to have stressful conversations at nighttime and give myself the space for sleep and know, know it's worthy, even if I'm missing out on something which was certainly hard to do when I was younger the FOMO thing. But yeah, I'd say that's my biggest, yeah.

Michele Folan:

Yeah, I'm right there with you, sister, on the sleep. All right, Dr Jenn Gunsaullus, where can listeners find you and your book?

Jenn Gunsaullus, PhD:

Yeah, my hub for all my work is my main website, drjensdencom. It's D-R-J-E-N-N-S-D-E-N. com. That's the handle. Also on Instagram and Twitter and LinkedIn etc. So my book's on there, my podcast is on there, LinkedIn et cetera. So my book's on there, my podcast is on there. Tons of 15, 20 years of information is on there for folks to learn. Tons of free materials out there for them to learn, just like this great podcast, oh well thank you, and you were a fun guest.

Michele Folan:

I love this, I love this conversation and I really hope we helped a couple or two out there just to start having that conversation, to get them feel a little more connected again. Absolutely, that's what we do, Dr Jenn, thanks so much for being here. Thanks, Michele, much appreciated. Hey, thanks for tuning in. Please rate and review the show where you listen to the podcast. And did you know that Asking for a Friend is available now to listen on YouTube? You can subscribe to the podcast there as well. Your support is appreciated and it helps others find the show. Thank you.