Ep.68 It's Not Normal, It's Toxic: Choosing Yourself Over an Unhealthy Relationship

Do you ever wonder why a particular relationship that you have is so darned difficult?  If you sometimes ask yourself if the relationship is unhealthy for you, then maybe it's time to assess the situation.  Being walked on, devalued, or feeling stuck can be demoralizing, and worse yet, if we let things go too long, we can develop emotional abuse fatigue.

These relationships can be confusing, because they may not be bad all the time.  So at what point do we decide, for our own emotional health and wellbeing, that we need set boundaries or walk away altogether?

Toxic relationship specialist, Dr. Heidi Brocke, walked the path, struggled, learned, healed, and recovered from an emotionally abusive relationship.  Now she is here to help you do the same.  Heidi is a coach, and she also has a top-ranked podcast called It's Not Normal, It's Toxic: Rid Your Life of Toxic People.

In this episode Heidi and I discuss:
- Her journey to finally walking away from her emotional abuser
- How to define a toxic relationship and what the red flags are
- Family and workplace toxicity
- What the recovery process looks like
- Getting help in order to be able to make a clean break

You can find Dr. Heidi Brocke at:
https://coachingwithdrheidi.com/
https://www.instagram.com/itsnotnormalitstoxicpodcast/

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Transcript

Asking for a Friend Podcast
It's Not Normal, It's Toxic: Choosing Yourself Over an Unhealthy Relationship
Michele Folan
Dr. Heidi Brocke

toxic, toxic relationship, feel, relationship, emotional abuse, person, started, clients, heidi, personality, people, leave, teach, years, emotionally abusive, divorced, good, family

Do you ever wonder why a particular relationship that you have is so darn difficult? If you're sometimes asking yourself if the relationship is unhealthy for you, then maybe the situation deserves some attention. Being walked on devalued or feeling stuck can be demoralizing. And worse yet, if you let things go too long, we can actually develop emotional abuse fatigue. These relationships are confusing, because they're not always bad all the time. So at what point do we decide that for our own emotional health and well being, that we set the boundaries or walk away altogether, today's guests walked the path, she struggled, she learned, healed and recovered from an emotionally abusive relationship. And now she is here to help you do the same.

Speaker 1  1:09  
Health, Wellness, career, relationships, and everything in between. We're removing the taboo from what really matters in midlife. I'm your host, Michele Folan. And this is asking for a friend. Welcome to the show everyone. Our guest today is a toxic relationship specialist whose mission is to bring hope, healing and freedom to those whose lives have been affected by toxic relationships and emotional abuse. Dr. Heidi Brockie wants to not only help people learn to recognize red flags, but also have the courage to choose yourself and move forward in a life that is free from the control of others. Heidi is a coach. She's a blogger, and she also is the host of the podcast. It's not normal. It's toxic. Welcome, Dr. Heidi Brockie.

Unknown Speaker  2:15  
Thank you. I'm excited to be here. This will be fun.

Speaker 1  2:18  
I told you before we got started that I've not covered this topic, and I'm really excited to dig into this. But before we get started, I would love for you to share with the audience a little bit about you where you're from your schooling, any family or personal details you'd like to share.

Speaker 2  2:36  
When people say this, this is where I go, okay? Everybody go get a cocktail. Because you know, when you go, okay, so how did you get into this or whatever you think, Well, where do I start? So I am not a mental health professional. That's the first thing I say, which sometimes surprises people because working in this area, and with the doctor before my name, people assume that I am a chiropractor, acupuncturist by trade. I am now retired from healthcare after 25 years, and I do the toxic relationship awareness and healing full time, all day long, almost every day of the week, which I would have never thought it was eye opening to me that I'm that busy. Well, I was raised in a little town that got very famous over the last couple of years. I was raised in Bozeman, Montana on a dairy farm. And I used to say that and people were like, Oh, now I say that and they're like, oh, Yellowstone. Yes. Jonas film, and presently am at the Lake of the Ozarks and my inlaws, which is where Ozark the Netflix series was filmed, Ah,

Unknown Speaker  3:41  
love that show.

Speaker 2  3:42  
I was raised in a little Christian community out in Montana, basically saw the same people for the first 18 years of my life, we all went to the same church, I went to a Christian high school, K through 12. When I left Montana to go to grad school, I think I had the perception that everybody in the world was like, that tight knit community. You know, you knew everybody, everybody knew you. Everybody was reporting if you were doing something bad and watching to make sure you were okay. And that kind of thing. I have always been obviously the helper fixer supporter or I would have never chose health care. And so it kind of led me into a relationship that from the very beginning, I knew something wasn't right. I felt anxious. I had some pains in my stomach, some things that kind of made me feel like ooh, that didn't make me feel comfortable. I didn't want to be the bad person. And I didn't want to be the one that was being mean. And so about the fifth or sixth time he asked me out, I went out on the first date with him. Long story short, 14 years later, with a business together and a ranch together and two daughters together. I ran away from him. Anybody who has been in something that's toxic, will understand what I'm saying. But it's it's a long story. It's very confusing. And since you haven't covered that topic, yet it, I want to cover part of it as we go through rather than just dump everything on there. But I relocated four hours away, and I had to sign my half of the office over I gave him basically everything gave him all the property. I initially left my kids, I had two daughters, 11 and 13, which he kept for five years from me. Oh, wow. So when I relocated, I was literally no friends, no patients, no business, no family, I had met the man that I'm married to now. I would marry him every day of my life, by the way. Oh, when I did finally run away, this is important for anybody who's listening that goes, Oh, my gosh, I have to listen to this because it sounds like me. I was actually divorced already. For two years, when I finally had to run away. I was super excited about having divorce papers in my hand, and nothing really changed. Now when we talk about toxic relationships, they're vast. But that being said, I started a new chiropractic office for ourself built it. And everybody goes through burnout in their job. Everybody does. I had learned through the years that as soon as I'm feeling burned out, which what that looks like for a chiropractor, when they're burned out, they're thinking, yeah, yeah, whatever, get on the table. And when I started doing that, I thought, Okay, I'm not helping my patients. So I wanted to add something that got me back excited. And I started doing women's retreats, on making yourself a priority. And I hadn't talked about my former life when I was in it, because you don't talk about what goes on at home. I didn't talk about it when I first left, because I was trying to build a new life. And how do you explain, you've got two kids that you left. And so I didn't talk about it? Well, by the third retreat, I started using examples from my former life. And I remember the first time I did, I covered my mouth, because I was like, Oh, my gosh, I cannot believe I said that. Well, as it turned out, the people that were coming, we're coming out of emotionally abusive, or controlling relationships, about that fast. I say I picked this job, this mission 100% picked me, I would have never, ever thought I would be doing this if somebody would have told me. But it was almost like, I just felt the calling. And I didn't have a choice. And so now, my mission is to be the person that I needed when I was going through it, because it's very difficult to understand emotional abuse, if you haven't been through it. I have been doing this for almost eight years and full time since 2020.

Speaker 1  7:22  
I have to say this, first of all, it was brave of you to do what you did. Because not a lot of people would be able to pick up, I know it had to be heartbreaking for you. And I want to recognize this, to have to leave your girls to be that desperate to feel like that was the thing to do. There was a self preservation there. And I understand that, I appreciate you telling your story. Because I do believe that there are a lot of women out there that will be able to relate to us. So thank you for being honest and forthright with that, because it's sometimes hard to talk about that. But when you started your women's group, wasn't that therapeutic for you to at the same time, it was except I was very

Speaker 2  8:13  
nervous. We'll talk about the definition of toxic in a minute. But being in a relationship that's not healthy for you, is kind of like walking into a room that stinks. You stay in the room, the smell goes away. So my girls and I, we didn't realize it was as extreme as it was, because that's how we lived every day, you said that it was kind of a self preservation thing. And I have to be honest here. In the end, I did not do it for myself, because I had actually left that relationship six times, and ended up going back for multitude of reasons. He made me feel guilty or threatened me or whatever. But I ended up back there because I didn't understand the emotional connection with an emotional abuser. But what really drove me. And what really carried me through was, I was not an example of a mom that my girls needed. I couldn't stand up to him, I couldn't protect him, I stayed because I thought I was protecting them. But I couldn't protect him, even when I was there. And so that was one of the drives for me to leave is someday they're going to need me. And I may not be around if I keep deteriorating in this environment. And I wanted to be able to be the example that they needed. They'd never seen what a normal relationship really looked like. And the other thing I knew was that they were in the life of their father for the same reason I was they were placed there in order to supply him with what he needed to make his life feel secure. So I knew that if they didn't see his true colors if I kept making excuses, and if I kept covering up behavior, brushing over everything so that they didn't realize it. They would be 40 years old and be living in the basement because they wouldn't have known that it was a controlling abnormal, unhealthy environment.

Speaker 1  10:00  
All right, and you don't want them to choose poorly when it comes to their relationship.

Speaker 2  10:05  
Yep, yeah, I left them when they were 11 and 13. And they also ran away at 17 and 19. And they are almost 26 and 28. Now, and we have fantastic relationships are two of my best friends, if I could pick a person to spend a day with it would be one of them, or both of them, but they still fight like teenage girls. So that being said, I still struggle with making myself a priority. I'm always give give giving, it was my girls that finally drove me to leave, even though I had to leave them to do so.

Speaker 1  10:41  
All right, and that makes sense to me, it really does. I would like you to define a toxic relationship, because you may not know you're in a toxic relationship, even if it is

Speaker 2  10:55  
right, I first want to talk about the word toxic. I chose toxic for two reasons. I'm not a mental health professional. So I wasn't going to use any type of mental health term just to keep confusion down. Toxic is not a diagnosis. Toxic is an adjective that is used to describe any relationship and the status that it's in. It's unhealthy for you mentally, physically or emotionally. The thing with toxic is you can interchange the word toxic with unhealthy, that is basically all toxic means now, when I chose it, it was an all over social media. Now, it's all over social media. And they really, really portray it. Like it's a diagnosis, or there's a checklist that goes with it. Toxic can be on any level of extreme it can be the bully on the playground, all the way up to you know, the man I ran away from to the things you're seeing on Netflix, it can be in any type of relationship. When I started, I was going to help ladies out of emotionally abusive marriages. And now I work with toxic friendships, toxic co worker situation toxic family situations, reversal roles in the intimate relationship. And the easy part about that is all the toxic people operate very much the same, because they're all driven by the same thing. I think one of the things that we miss, and I think this probably is the next question that maybe we're thinking is, how do we know if it's toxic? The thing that we miss is, when we've been in it so long and it's become normal? We start seeking validation that is this really this bad? Or am I just overreacting? Or is it really my fault, because I'm not trying hard enough? So we start Googling and we start searching for things. You know, if they don't check all the boxes for this diagnosis, then it must be my fault, you know, you're looking for validation. And the thing with toxic is, we get to pick, there's so many people that I talked to that don't realize, you get to decide who's healthy for you and who's not. But like where I was, I didn't understand the situation. I didn't understand it for what it was. That's what I give my clients. I teach them exactly what's going on in the relationships, so then they can make the best decision for themselves. I never say if they're toxic, or if they're not, you need this information if you're in it, and you need this information if you're out of it, basically.

Speaker 1  13:13  
I guess my first question is, is it possible for the toxic person or the narcissist whoever it is for them to change? Ever? I mean, I guess I wonder at what point you realize it's not worth working on and it's better to walk away.

Speaker 2  13:34  
I think it's different for everybody and I think it depends on the level of severity. Now you won't hear me say the word narcissist very often. Only because it healthcare in the 90s everybody had fibromyalgia and then everybody was peanut allergy and then everybody was gluten intolerant. Now everybody is a narcissist. Narcissistic Personality Disorder is a mental health condition. I'm very respectful of the toxic person because somebody who has that type of personality did not ask to be like that. There was something in their upbringing that made them insecure in themselves, which causes this type of behavior.

Unknown Speaker  14:12  
Are you talking narcissists not a toxic person?

Speaker 2  14:15  
Well, just toxic but right now okay, everybody is a narcissist right now. And the reason I don't use that is because it doesn't matter if they are or they aren't. It doesn't make the relationship any healthier for you. Really what has gotten me to where I am, and me knowing that if I was going to help people, I had to be able to really show them inside their home and inside their life, what was happening and in reality, the two people in a relationship that's toxic are in it for two different goals. Their goals are not the same, but your toxic person is going to lead them to believe the goals are the same in order to get them to commit and invest in the relationship. Now, that being He said You asked if they could change. If anybody can see the video, you can see I have very dark hair. When I left my former, I was almost completely blonde. And that was because three weeks after he married me, he said he was so disappointed in himself because he was always going to marry a blonde. over the 12 years of marriage, it was highlights, highlights, highlights, my hair is just one example of all of the things of me, that made me me, that he loved in the beginning, that then over time, those were the things that he destroyed me over. He didn't like my bubbly personality. I was too loud. He didn't like my hair. I was too short. How come I didn't dress like Jane, you know, all of that. When I looked in the mirror, I didn't recognize myself. When we say can they change? I have to look at it like this, if this is the personality that they were given, is it fair for us to ask them to change? Because I am very emotional, emotionally wired. And therefore people I help people I want to support I want to fix I'm the one that cancels the pedicure that's been on the schedule for eight months, because somebody needs me. That's why I adapted. Oh, well, if I can just make him happy. I'm just looking for acceptance. Yeah. Asking them to change when they are not wired emotionally, like us is no different than them asking us to change our personality. Basically, what I teach is if people decide my clients decide this is an unhealthy relationship, we don't worry about it, I had to make the decision that my former in my life at any level was detrimental to me. And that's why I had to basically run away, cut him off cut all ties, because him in my life, in any conversation, any contact at all, was detrimental, because I'm emotionally wired. He is wired differently. And the reason I was in his life was to make him feel secure. So for me to be able to step out of that I had to cut off what I was supplying him,

Speaker 1  16:54  
you got away, you escape that. But what about all the people and I'll say people, because a man can be in a toxic relationship. I mean, at some point, you're gonna start to become a victim. Because you're going to be in a place where your every bit of self confidence and self worth is going to be in the toilet.

Speaker 2  17:19  
Yes, that's my ideal client right there. Because as soon as you notice, you're not you, you don't have self esteem, your confidence is gone, your self worth is gone. There's a reason why the emotionally abusive person purposely takes that away, so you become dependent on them. Emotional abuse is when somebody uses your emotions to get what they need. If they can do or say something to make you happy or sad, or guilty or angry. They know that they can control how you feel by what they say and do. And after you've been in a relationship like that. For a while walking on eggshells is one of the things a lot of people say, I feel like I walk on eggshells all the time. That's because you're always trying to anticipate what they're going to say or do so you can keep yourself safe. And what they're saying and doing is trying to control your emotions. Now if the listeners are wondering, okay, I wonder if I'm in an emotionally abusive relationship, picture this. It's Tuesday morning, you're getting the kids ready for school. Everything's going fine. I'm just going to use my type of relationship example. You hear him get up. He talks to the kids, you hear him talk to the dog. He comes in the kitchen takes his coffee, gives you a kiss on the cheek says Have a good day or can he leaves? What kind of day do you have that day? Most of us would have a pretty good day. But if on Wednesday, you hear him screaming at the kids and he kicks the dog and he grabs his coffee doesn't say anything leaves and slams the door. What kind of day do you have that day? Terrible, a very anxious day. Yeah, that's an example of someone else controlling your emotions. You're waiting to see what mood they're in, and how they're treating you before you are able to grasp your feelings for the day. And the emotionally abusive person wants to be able to do that, because then they can control a lot more well, like mine. Two of the times I left all he said was I can't believe you're breaking up our family. I didn't take two seconds to remind myself this is not a family. He said that to make me feel guilty because he learned over the years I don't like to feel guilty. So the fastest way for me to get rid of the feeling of guilt was to do exactly what he wanted.

Speaker 1  19:24  
It's gaslighting it constantly gaslighting,

Speaker 2  19:28  
how many times do you hear you shouldn't feel like that? Or how can we feel like that? Or you're overreacting. So we quit feeling and we wait to see how they think we should feel? And then we try to do that.

Speaker 1  19:40  
Have you seen any trends with clients who tend to be more attracted to toxic relationships? They have a tendency to choose poorly. And maybe that's because they're wired that way as well.

Speaker 2  19:55  
Now I have a completely different perspective of that. Okay, because the toxic personality He is seeking one that they know they can control. They know will adapt, they know will change. We think our picker is broken if we've been in repetitive relationships, and in reality, the emotionally wired person is a target for the toxic people. Okay? And if you've been in one, it's easy to repeat, because you don't know any different. It's become normal already. Or if you were raised in an environment like that, chances are, you're going to marry into something like that, because you're so used to it.

Unknown Speaker  20:30  
How do you stop the pattern?

Speaker 2  20:33  
You call Dr. Heidi? That's exactly what I do. And I'm just gonna guess you because you're in the same world of helping people and getting information to people. We only see the world through our emotionally wired eyes. I can't tell you how many times in my former relationship, I looked at him and thought, How come you can't Just act normal? How can you can't be nice, okay, he wasn't acting normal to me because he wasn't acting like me. And I only know how I see the world. So when someone comes to me, the first thing I do, a lot of them have been trying to decide if they should stay or if they should go for years, these relationships aren't bad all the time. And I have been blessed with the ability to understand the toxic personality very, very well down to the point that I can almost predict their behavior. If you came to me and said, Okay, I don't know if I should stay. Or if I should go, I would teach you how to see every single situation through the toxic person's eyes, you basically flip the perspective, because you're looking at everything very emotional. And you have a very non emotional person looking at the situation from a completely different angle, when they're criticizing you if you're loading the dishwasher for the 12th year in a row. And they say, How come you're loading the dishwasher like that? Okay, in your mind, you're like, I've been loading the dishwasher like this for 12 years, and it's worked fine. And then you wonder why they're not acting normal. Like why after 12 years, are you asking me in that instance, the toxic personality, their drivers security in themselves, you and I know that if we have the time and the energy, and the attention to put into ourselves, we feel good about ourselves, right? You gain a little weight, you feel like crap about yourself, you lose the weight, you feel better. The toxic personality doesn't have the ability to do that. It doesn't matter how much money how many friends what job title they hold, how great their physique is, it's never enough to make them feel secure in themselves. So they have to have people in their life, that they can get the feeling of control or power, or get attention or get admiration, because those are the things that make them feel secure. So when he comes in 12 years later, and says, How come you're loading the dishwasher like that, he's actually just having a little moment of insecurity and has to criticize you because it's the bully on the playground. If I can make you feel bad, I feel better. You know, it's constantly a competition. There's always comparisons, there's belittling, there's a lot of name calling, and all of those are the bully. It gives them power. And where is your attention when somebody's criticizing your name calling you on them?

Unknown Speaker  23:09  
Absolutely.

Speaker 2  23:10  
So that's basically what I teach, you can take every single thing that they say or do and put it into the formula that I teach. And I'll never forget, when I figured it out, and my clients will do the same. They'll be like, You got to be kidding me. This is so easy. Because everything that they do falls right into that I need you in my life so that I feel secure. That's why it's very hard to leave these relationships because they feel insecure when they feel the loss of control. So they do everything they can to keep you or get you back.

Speaker 1  23:39  
Right? If you have a child that's in a relationship, and you identify it as a toxic relationship, it's unhealthy. What do you suggest parents do to help their child see the light?

Speaker 2  23:55  
Well, you should ask my poor, lovely mother. Oh, that poor woman went through so much watching me. They knew I shouldn't marry him. I knew I shouldn't marry him. I was scared of him. I wasn't scared physically of him. At that point. I was scared of making him mad. I was scared of disappointing him. Okay, when they instill fear, they feel power, right? That's another one of the red flags. This is my recommendation, because I've seen it and I've done it. I was never going to listen to my mother. I am one that would have to make my own mistakes. So what I suggest is Don't say I have to do this. One of my daughters does not pick the best relationships. My younger one is wired very much like me, she clings to every word. I said, she's been on my podcast a couple times. But I know with my oldest I can't say I think you should leave him. I have to say basically, you know, that's not normal behavior. What does this remind you of? And then I'll refer to basically what I teach and then I'll say you know what you should do? You already know what you should do if you need my help, let me know in the teenage world Teenage toxic relationships can be scary. Oh, yeah, as a parent, you really, really, really make sure that your child does not feel like you are judging, because they're going to pick their boyfriend or girlfriend over you, if they think you're going to reject them, you really present you know, I don't think that's normal behavior, I didn't like the way he treated you. So just keep your eye out for that. If you want to talk about it, or something like that, let me know. Because if you say, you're not going to see them anymore, guess who's going out their bedroom window that night.

Speaker 1  25:31  
And I know, you got to be kind of careful, you got to play that game a little bit.

Speaker 2  25:37  
I have to do that too, with my clients, because it's not my job to tell you to stay or leave. It's my job to give you the information. I give you the information. And I repeat myself all the time. And that's fine with me. Because believe me, if someone was trying to teach it to me, while I was in it, it would have been Repeat, repeat, repeat. Nothing leaves your life until you've learned what it came to teach you. Well, I didn't know it at the time. But I have the best job on the planet now. And I would never be able to do this. If I hadn't been through that. The hardest thing for me, it's not near as hard for me now as it was in the beginning. Because when I started this job, I was saving lives. And I had to learn that just like me, no one is going to leave a toxic relationship until they are ready, no matter how many people tell them, they should leave

Speaker 1  26:28  
well, and they're going to come see you when they're ready. Yep, they obviously at that point, know that I can't live like this any longer.

Speaker 2  26:36  
I have a support group on Facebook, and it just hit 6000. And people in there are at all different stages of their journey. And I've had it for four or five years. And I've seen people that came in there four years ago, knowing nothing stayed in there learned listen to my podcast, maybe did one session with me. And then all of a sudden, there's an email, Okay, I'm ready, I need an escape plan, I do help people set up escape plans. Not everybody can have an amicable separation. If it's a toxic personality, that's more extreme. For me to set up the escape plan, I will take them as a private client, because I have to know quite a bit about their situation, because safety obviously is first. And when the toxic personality starts feeling insecure, the abuse will escalate, things will get bigger. And we have to really be careful with that.

Speaker 1  27:26  
God just makes me kind of sit back a little bit. And you said that you should see

Speaker 2  27:33  
me on a day that if I know that somebody is leaving, it almost is almost like a flashback. For me. My anxiety is super high. If I know one of my clients is making the exit, because there are certain, like we said earlier, there's all different levels of toxic and I couldn't sit until mine. I had to run away. I had to be gone by the time he got home from work. You know, there's been quite a few clients that I've had to get out that way. And you know, too, I stayed and stayed and stayed because nobody understood it. They would say stuff like, well, if it's so bad, why don't you leave? Well, they don't understand that I'm scared well, then when you say you're scared, they go, why is he hitting you? And if you say no, they're like, Well, then why you're scared. But it's that emotional abuse. It's the fear of their reaction. We don't want to make them mad. We don't want to cause conflict, we just want to keep the peace and emotional people. That's our goal in life. Keep the peace.

Speaker 1  28:28  
But some people come from toxic families. It's a little different, right? You're not packing up and leaving your family. But what if you're that adult who knows that every holiday or anytime you speak to somebody in your family that you're the one that's always getting ganged up on, you're getting belittled, you're treated like the black sheep. And it's not just from one person in your family, it may be multiple people. How do you devise a path forward for those individuals.

Speaker 2  28:59  
I do work with a lot of families also. And I have had some people have to completely cut family members out, okay. But we don't ever really want to do that. But knowing the toxic personality is looking for the feeling of control or power, or they're doing stuff to get your attention. What you do is you change the way you interact with them. They are seeking any emotional reaction. They'll pick a fight with you, they'll say something derogatory to make you upset or make you cry. What you do is you start taking the emotion out when you communicate with them now, they're not going to like it because at first they're really going to feel the change. I've worked with a lot of people through their divorces, and then through co parenting, because if they weren't a good parent, why on earth do we all of a sudden think that when we get divorced, we're going to have a good co parenting relationship we're not because as long as you're in their life and can supply them with those feelings, they're going to use you. I teach people how to change the way they interact so that the behavior The toxic personality doesn't affect you. People that come to me are always coming to me for one particular person. Okay, I'm in your group because it's my mom, or it's my husband, or it's my wife. Halfway through me working with them, people will be like, Oh my gosh, you just reminded me, I have this high school friend and I feel the exact same way. Okay, well, if our personality is going to attract them, chances are there's more than one of them in our life. Well, I teach you how to interact differently, you can decide where to put them. You know, I used to be one that invited everybody into my inner circle, yes, come in, I'll help you. And I'll drop your kids off. And all yeah, whatever, I'll do whatever. And I spent the last 15 years kicking them all out of my inner circle. Because now what I do is, I know, I don't have to kick everybody out of my life, I just have to put them into the appropriate circles. Yes, and interact with them accordingly, so I am safe.

Speaker 1  30:53  
It's like a bullseye, you get the center of the bullseye. Those are your kids.

Unknown Speaker  30:58  
And the bullseye only has one or two people in it. Usually,

Speaker 1  31:01  
I think that's a smart strategy. But you said something before about, it can really be unsettling for the person who's toxic. When you decide to show up differently, and behave and react differently to how they're speaking to you. It'll put them back on their heels a little bit, that I'd love. I think that is really great advice.

Speaker 2  31:26  
It is great advice. However, now usually, if it's a family member, or a friend or good, but if I'm working with somebody, and I know that if they change their behavior, abuse is going to escalate. We have a plan before we change the behavior. Because what happens is, let's just say okay, they use criticising, to make themselves feel better. The first day they criticize you, you're all upset and you're crying. And of course, they got the emotional reaction that they wanted, and your attentions on them, and they feel better, right? Well, if they said that same criticism every day for 30 days, do you think you'd have the same reaction on the 30th day as you did the first day? Now, they say it every day. So why would you react? Okay, now they're not getting any more. So now, the criticisms get meaner, or the names get louder. Well, pretty soon I was so used to get in swore and out that it didn't faze me, then. Okay, well, he was gonna pick up something and break it. Because that caused a reaction, my whole house got destroyed. I was so used to my stuff being destroyed, I didn't even I am so not attached to stuff. Okay, because now I'm not reacting to him breaking stuff. So now they're blocking doorways. Now they're holding you down on the floor. Okay. Now we're in a full blown domestic violence situation. And it could have started out just verbal, but because our body will normalize us, because it cannot endure long standing emotional pain. So what your body will do is it will numb your senses a little bit. Just like if you walk into a room, that stinks if you stay in the room, right? Yeah. So you have to be careful. Now, again, these relationships that are farther away, if you're not living with them, whatever. But we don't like people mad at us. And if we start reacting differently and not getting what they want, chances are they're going to be mad at us. Chances are, they're going to be mad at you anyway. You haven't I didn't text her back. What's going to happen if you don't text her back? Well, I'm going to get 28 texts, we're gonna get 28 texts anyway, we get so afraid of their reaction that we don't realize they've been doing the same thing everyday for the whole 28 years we've been married. When we start pulling that stuff out from under the rug, we can start seeing the cycle. But when you're in survival mode, trying to preserve life and preserve the relationship and preserve peace, if Tuesday's a really bad day. And Wednesday is a good day. Your job is now to survive Wednesday. So you are not going to bring up what happened on Tuesday. So what happened on Tuesday goes under the rug. Yeah. And we pretend we dealt with it. Well, that's how we missed the cycle of abuse. Then we're like, oh, my gosh, I can't believe they did that really pull the rug up. They've been doing it all along. But we're just trying to anticipate to stay safe all the time that everything that's done, you kind of assume that it's been dealt with, you know, where

Speaker 1  34:09  
I can see this happening a lot too is in the workplace. Do you have clients that are recovering or trying to escape a toxic work environment,

Speaker 2  34:20  
I've had a couple that actually just quit very, very good careers, because they just couldn't navigate within that environment. I actually have spoken to some very large corporations on this topic. I always get a little nervous, though, because I don't want to create a hornet's nest within some big corporation. But it's basically the same thing. They're going to target the people that they can use for something. And once you realize what they're using you for, you stop giving it to them. And the bad thing is it's going to escalate for a little bit, but the good thing is they can't survive without it. So if you're consistent in not supplying them, they're going to have to go find it somewhere else. Yeah, but that was my by mistake, I thought, Oh, great, I have the divorce papers, everything's gonna be great. Literally, nothing changed, except there was two houses on the same property. I worked with him every day in the office, he could date whoever he wanted. He kept an eye on me. Well, he wasn't gonna let me date even though I was divorced. Yeah. And I had to work with him the next day, I was going to still play by his rules. And I remember thinking, jeez, it would have been easier to stay married. And some of my clients when they come to me, if they filed for divorce, they are very upset that it has gotten worse since they filed. And that's just because they don't understand how the toxic personality operates. As soon as I teach him, rock stars, I have a lady. Oh, gee, she's one of my really, really good friends now. But she came to me about five years ago, and she cried through the whole first session because she had gotten divorced. And she said, it was so much worse. That lady is a rockstar right? Now, if I had to not teach my community one week, Connie could teach my community, she listened to everything, she changed the way she interacted, she doesn't worry about him getting mad. But you will never see it from that perspective, unless you have the information that can help you because I remember thinking, this is ridiculously easy. Now, the other thing is, you know, people want me to say, Should I stay? Or should I go? I'm not telling you that put that decision on a box for because I tried to decide if I should stay or go for 12 years. And in reality, if that was an easy decision, I would have made it. And then what I say is Okay, then let's go through a couple of weeks of education. And that decision is going to make itself you're going to wake up one morning, and you're gonna go, I am not doing this one more day, my daughters call that half past quarter till I don't give a crap. They go, you're gonna wake up one morning, and it's half past quarter till I don't give a crap. And you'll just decide you're not doing it. And people go, Oh, I don't know, because I've been on the fence for so long. And almost everyone goes, I reached my half past quarter till, yeah, because once you see it, you can't unsee it.

Speaker 1  37:00  
I would love for you to tell us a little bit about your coaching program. So I know you have one on one clients, but you also do some group coaching as well.

Speaker 2  37:08  
When I left, I left everything had no money. For years, I was robbing Peter to pay Paul. And I don't like to work like that. Nobody likes to work because we have to have bills to pay. I did that for a very long time. Well, about four years ago, it kind of shifted, the need is out there. I started my podcast, it's called it's not normal. It's toxic if people are looking for it, but I started it because I had never talked about my story. I had zero intention of anybody ever listening to that podcast, I just was trying to learn to talk about it. The need is so big and I only have X amount of hours in my day, I do take private clients. Usually the more extreme ones are the ones that are getting ready to escape or going through a bad divorce. But I also just started the we're in it together membership support community. I'm in there every week. And it's got a lot of membership benefits discounts on one on ones with me, it started in March. I love it. Because I love the interaction with people. My program is also in a written form,

Speaker 1  38:08  
I would think that people would learn from each other too. So when you can have that kind of community, it can be very helpful for everybody involved.

Speaker 2  38:16  
And they can find that on coaching with Dr. Heidi is my website,

Speaker 1  38:20  
you have a toxicity profile analysis on your website. Can anyone take that?

Speaker 2  38:26  
Yes, I created that for two reasons. This is funny, it was so long ago, I don't even know if I was Googling stuff back then. But you know, you're looking for validation. The TPA is very long, but it's all yes or no questions and it asks you different things. And people don't realize it. But I teach 21 character traits of the toxic person, which some people call red flags, some people call them tactics, but those are the things they do and say to people to get what they need. Okay, someone who takes it will go all the way through the yes or no questions, and sometimes just reading them. Somebody who's been in it for a long time, might be very surprised by just reading the questions because they've gotten so used to the behavior that they might not even realize it's toxic. In the end, you'll get a you may be mildly moderately or severely affected by the toxic traits of others, then you can be done and you can get off my website if you want to. But the results I get when you take it are different. Each one of the questions correlates to one of the 21 character traits that I teach. I can see how many yeses you answer. Michelle, if you took it, and you had a toxic personality in your life, I wouldn't be able to see exactly what type of personality you were dealing with before you ever booked with me. Because if I had to sit down and tell somebody my story for the first time, it would have been gut wrenching and I would have been crying and it's emotional and it's exhausting. The TPA helps me see into your life without if I asked somebody to write everything down their toxic person said or did they'd write till next Christmas or hate it? It helps. But it's also a really good validation tool. And yes, people can go take it. And if you're in a spot where you can't have the emails going into your inbox, take it, get the results and unsubscribe from my email list. That support group on Facebook is private also.

Speaker 1  40:14  
Very good, very good. Repeat again, where your website is. Okay. It's coaching with Dr. heidi.com. And then where can people find you on Instagram and Facebook?

Unknown Speaker  40:25  
It's all the same thing. It's all coaching with Dr. Heidi.

Unknown Speaker  40:28  
Oh, very convenient. That's wonderful.

Speaker 2  40:32  
And it's coaching with Dr. Heidi, because I've picked that in secret. Because I get hate emails. There's people out there that do not like Dr. Heidi, I've convinced their spouse to leave or I've had their daughter, you know. And so the coaching with Dr. Heidi that way, if it shows up on a receipt, I still use my edge chiropractic for credit card receipts. That's my LLC. So I've got everything worked in. So if you have to use me in secret, we can make that work until you're ready to go. Well, I

Speaker 1  41:03  
don't think you're convincing people to leave a bad situation. I think you're just helping them put the pieces together. You're doing good work.

Unknown Speaker  41:12  
I'm an educator. You are.

Speaker 1  41:14  
This was a very eye opening conversation. Dr. Heidi Brockie. I appreciate this because I really hope that if there's someone listening if we get this information into one person's hands and we can make a difference. I think we've done our job. I agree. Thank you for being here today. Yes, thanks for having me. If you or someone you know feels that they are in immediate danger, call 911 or the Domestic Violence Hotline at 1-800-799-7233 That's one 800 799 safe.

Speaker 1  42:01  
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Transcribed by https://otter.ai