Ep.103 Rising Above Infidelity and Narcissism: Weighing Your Options & Reclaiming Self

As life's complexities unfold, psychologist and coach Lauren Napolitano joins us to dissect the painful yet sometimes transformative nature of infidelity, providing understanding for those navigating these difficult times.

Trust is the cornerstone of any relationship, yet when it's shattered by infidelity, the rebuilding process can resemble a labyrinth of emotional turns. This episode doesn't shy away from the tough conversations, including a gripping account of a woman who chose to face her husband's emotional affair with extraordinary bravery. We discuss the societal shackles and the often solitary aftermath of such revelations, and the imperative role of specialized couples counseling in the journey towards forgiveness and reconnection. The goal is to validate the myriad of experiences and the resilience it takes to either mend the cracks or close the book on a chapter of one's life.

In a world where the term 'narcissism' is thrown around with alarming frequency, we zone in on what it truly means to be entangled with a narcissist and how gaslighting can erode one's sense of self. Tactics for preserving your identity and the importance of establishing boundaries are underscored, without sugarcoating the challenging decision of whether to stay or depart from a relationship. 

https://www.instagram.com/laurennapolitanopsyd/
https://www.laurennapolitano.com/

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Transcript

Michele Folan: 0:00

If you are a midlife woman who's frustrated because you're trying to lose body fat, but what you've done in the past is no longer touching that muffin top Perhaps you're struggling to manage your sugar cravings or evening snacking. You want to build muscle, stay active and be mobile well into your later years? Well, listen, I have been in your shoes and can share a program with coaching and accountability to keep you on track, with daily at-home workouts and macro-based meal plans that produce sustainable results. All you need to do is decide that you are worth it and that you want to control the narrative. And how do I know this will work for you? I was a client and loved my results so much that I became a coach. Just go to the show notes of this episode and let's connect. I'd love to tell you more and work with you as your certified coach. Now on to the show Health, wellness, fitness and everything in between. We're removing the taboo from what really matters in midlife. I'm your host, michelle Follin, and this is Asking for a Friend. Welcome to the show everyone.

Michele Folan: 1:21

When it comes to reasons for couples to part ways, infidelity or an extramarital affair is still the most common reason, but you almost have to look at what causes the infidelity in the first place. Some top reasons are lack of connection or family support, or lack of emotional intimacy or sexual intimacy. If you or someone you know is in this place, how do you recover and move ahead? Either you stay or you go. But can your best days be ahead of you? Lauren Napolitano says that indeed you can heal from infidelity. Laura is a clinical psychologist and coach who believes that it is never too late to either reinvent yourself or even your relationship.

Michele Folan: 2:13

Welcome to Asking for a Friend, lauren Napolitano. Thanks, Michelle. I'm thrilled to be here back of how we connected, but it was nice to have you bring this topic up, because I think there is not only a ton of meat on this bone, but for women in this age group, this is becoming very relevant, and so I'm glad we're going to dig into this today. But before we get started, I would love for you to tell the audience more about you and also your career path, sure.

Lauren Napolitano: 2:49

I'm a psychologist. My office is in Philadelphia. I work with adults individually and also couples. I also work with parents who are divorced that are working on co-parenting. I've been a psychologist for about 20 years now, which I guess makes me appropriate for a midlife conversation, but my interests have sort of changed over the years. I think as you conquer different hurdles you become interested in different issues. So early in my career I worked with younger adults or adolescents and then, as I've aged, I've been more interested in working in marriages and relationships and infidelity, divorce all the things that all of us are dealing with in one way or another.

Michele Folan: 3:33

So you said that you have a personal story that you feel is really helping you help others. Do you mind sharing a little bit about that?

Lauren Napolitano: 3:41

Oh sure, I turned 50 this year but I got divorced from my first husband when I was 35 and there was infidelity in that marriage. But I will say that in my case the infidelity I will say was a gift because it was the least of our problems. The infidelity was not the reason for the divorce. The divorce happened because we really weren't friends and so in many ways that kind of infidelity just woke me up to the fact that I was trying to fit a square into a round hole. But it was a real eye opener for me and I think for a lot of people. This is sort of going on, you know probably further questions, but there's two types of infidelity. There's infidelity that hurts because there is love and there's affection and there's friendship, and it's a real betrayal. And then there's another kind of infidelity which I experienced which is more just like a wake up call of like, wow, I don't have to be here, why am I doing this?

Michele Folan: 4:41

And it's a gift, to sort of say like get out, and you were relatively young at that. At that point, yes, I was.

Lauren Napolitano: 4:48

I mean, I had two young kids, so it wasn't easy. But I was young enough to realize like, wow, if there's already infidelity in our thirties like this is not going anywhere, good Right.

Michele Folan: 5:01

And then once we get a little older 50s, even 60, it may have some different meaning where the kids are out of the house. And then it means, okay, we're going to be alone. And I did want to talk about that real quick because the current statistics for marriage or divorce and correct me if I'm wrong, but from what I read, baby boomers are still divorcing at a much higher rate than other age groups. And then the fact that in the baby boomer group it's typically the women that are initiating the divorce. What are you seeing currently in your practice?

Lauren Napolitano: 5:56

I wouldn't say that I see any gender splits in terms of who is initiating divorce. I know the cliched answer for why more women initiate divorce is that you know, say, 50, 70 years ago, women didn't have financial opportunities so they couldn't afford to divorce a bad partner, and so more women are economically or educationally privileged that they can do that. I also think, though, if you want to talk about some sort of like stereotypes in terms of a man cheating on a woman, I think sometimes in that situation, like in my first marriage, I think my husband at the time was cheating so that I would file for divorce. So he was provoking me so that I would sort of take the fall and file for divorce. So there is a little bit of one person loads the gun, one person fires the gun.

Michele Folan: 6:49

All right, I don't want to get too personal, but what do you think led up to that, or what do you see even in your practice, like what leads up to that infidelity most often?

Lauren Napolitano: 7:00

I think what there's? A lack of friendship. I think that's really the most fundamental piece of any platonic or romantic relationship is are you friends, like, are you really good friends where you can count on one another? And I think when there isn't a friendship, then there's just less emotional intimacy, there's less connection and then people kind of drift emotional intimacy there's less connection and then people kind of drift.

Michele Folan: 7:32

Okay, I don't mean to laugh, but I was like, could we be too good of friends and there is no sexual connection? Yeah, yeah, that's a very good point. I'm not speaking from experience.

Lauren Napolitano: 7:41

We're asking for a friend, yeah.

Michele Folan: 7:42

Yeah, I'm asking for a friend. I can't believe. I just said that. So what if there's infidelity with both partners?

Lauren Napolitano: 7:50

Well to me if. If someone came into my office and there was infidelity with both partners. I think the obvious question is sort of like do you want a, do you want to be together or do you want an open marriage? Like do you want A, do you want to be together or do you want an open marriage? Like do you need to redefine the terms of your relationship? I mean no judgment. Like whichever works is great, but like let's not call this monogamous marriage if you're both cheating.

Michele Folan: 8:17

Yeah, we've had that topic on the show before. Ethical non-monogamy, yeah, and I'm sure it made some people's heads spin, but I think in 2024. I mean, I think really all options are on the table, right, yeah, okay, can we talk about the emotional affair? How often?

Lauren Napolitano: 8:41

do you?

Michele Folan: 8:41

see that.

Lauren Napolitano: 8:42

I think that's much more common and, I think, typically pretty secret, right. Like I always say, the first sign of like an emotional affair is when you put the person in your phone under a different name, like I think that's when, if you're the person saying, oh, I'm going to call this person Sally, it should be sort of a red flag that something has gone a little bit too far. But I think, again it's, it's a slippery slope, so can people recover from infidelity.

Michele Folan: 9:16

It's a slippery slope. So can people recover from infidelity? Do you? Do you see that being a true possibility for the people in your practice?

Lauren Napolitano: 9:19

A hundred percent If both people are motivated and they are using, if both of them are using it as a wake up call that they've kind of, you know, gone into highway hypnosis and slid off the road. A hundred percent it can be worked through to highway hypnosis and slid off the road. 100% it can be worked through. The only issue is if one person is not motivated right, like if one person is already checked out, then the prognosis is grim.

Michele Folan: 9:43

Okay, is there ever really forgiveness?

Lauren Napolitano: 9:47

That's a good question. I think there can be. Okay. I mean, I don't see why there wouldn't be. I think you can forgive. What about trust? I think that also can be rebuilt, but it would be different, okay, as we once were. And so I think, even in a situation where maybe there's been betrayal, you can rebuild trust. But I don't know that it would be the same level or the same type of sort of blind trust that maybe you had 20 years ago.

Michele Folan: 10:25

You know I have a story to share. Yeah, this happened a while back. This is someone that I know and she found out that her husband was having more of an emotional at least that's what he said. It was an emotional affair, I think. She discovered some things and and he was open with her. She wanted to work it out and but she really felt that he needed to, you know, be remorseful for what he had done, because she really wanted to keep it from happening again.

Michele Folan: 11:01

Now I don't know what you're going to think about this, but her strategy was to haul his ass to her parents' house, make him get out of the car, ring the doorbell and tell her parents exactly what he had done. And then she took him to his parents' house Wow and made him do the exact same thing. She said you are going to be accountable for this. I appreciate you being honest, but you're going to be accountable for what you've done and, to my knowledge, they are still together today. Wow, yeah, that's quite a story. Yeah, I like that. I was really excited to share that with you because I'm throwing it out there as an idea to women that if you really want to make it work, then you talk about creating accountability. Everybody's going to know, but there's also the social stigma, I think, around whether you stay with someone who everyone know has cheated on you, and then also the flip side of maybe, okay, you're going to be that person that's never going to forgive and there's a lot there.

Lauren Napolitano: 12:18

There's so much there, michelle. The reason that I really talk a lot about infidelity in my practice is because there is so much stigma around staying with someone after infidelity. American culture is very black and white. We have this sort of knee-jerk reaction like once a cheater, always a cheater. A leopard doesn't change their spots and in many cases that's true, right, but not all of the time. But my concern for women, if they are the one who have been cheated on, is that then they cannot confide even with their closest friends or family, because the immediate advice they get is you know, you are spineless if you don't kick this person out. And it leads all of these secrets and shame and people feel very, very isolated when they're dealing with it because there's no one they can tell.

Michele Folan: 13:09

Yeah, I can only imagine how that feels in a social situation, when people see you with that person and they're wondering why you're still with them and you obviously want to work on it. You care, you love that person. You see that remorse and want to work it out Right. But then there's also that group which Lauren, you've seen this too where they think you should stay together at all costs and sometimes that's not palatable. How do you coach those people?

Lauren Napolitano: 13:50

I mean. The truth of the matter is that I think when infidelity is on the table, both partners feel like they're like in a circus, like everybody's got an opinion, everybody's cheering or jeering or booing, like people like outside you know, your outside sort of a circle of friends or family are heated and opinionated and have all kinds of unsolicited advice. So the best thing to do is to try to tune that out, to kind of listen to what your instinct is telling you, cause it's very easy to get swept up.

Michele Folan: 14:27

Yeah, and I I think too, when we're talking this age group, you know, fifties, 60s hopefully we have a little more confidence to stand on our own two feet and make those decisions based on what we need and what we want, and not what those outside influences are telling us. Yeah, agree, when people are looking for a couples coach, what do you recommend they look for? What's the most important thing?

Lauren Napolitano: 15:02

Well, that is a very good question, and it brings me to something you said before about. You know, some people are very strong minded around like once a cheater, always a cheater, and other people have very strong, say, religious backgrounds where it's like, nope, you made a vow, it's to the death. I think if you are handling infidelity, you should look for a counselor that specializes in that, because I think my concern would be that if you happen to see someone who is perhaps doing faith-based counseling, it's going to be a very biased opinion, right, which is like marriage is a vow you took and you have to forgive, or potentially someone who isn't specialized in infidelity, and they might be more in the camp of you know, if you have self-esteem, you skedaddle out of there. So I think you want to find someone who's seasoned with the topic.

Michele Folan: 15:56

Okay, you know, I had a friend call me the other day. She and her husband are going through a divorce and I think this happens very often where one of the parties really loves the counselor or the therapist and the other person doesn't. What do you do in that case?

Lauren Napolitano: 16:16

Sadly, I can tell you from both personal experience of having been in couples counseling in my first marriage and also being a couples counselor. It's often the case, right, Like in certain moments you experience the counselor siding with your partner and not you, and it's just, it's so enraging in that moment, right, but typically over time the scales will balance out. It's just, it is hard to tolerate when you feel like in that moment the counselor is siding with, quote unquote, the wrong person. So it is, it's part of being in couples counseling, sort of that seesaw of emotions.

Michele Folan: 17:00

Okay, Because I think that the person that typically doesn't like the therapist or the counselor is the one that feels that they're getting picked on or that they aren't. Their story isn't really being heard, Right. So okay.

Michele Folan: 17:17

Yeah, it's very challenging and I do want to discuss the narcissist, because there's the infidelity piece, but then there is the narcissism that oftentimes is a result of you know why they come to see you. If you do have a client, that's in that you detect that there really truly is narcissistic behavior. What do these conversations look like? Because these can be tough, right.

Lauren Napolitano: 17:52

Well, unfortunately it's really common, right. I mean I see some people who are exiting or divorcing a narcissistic man and that's usually a process of kind of rebuilding your self-esteem and rebuilding kind of what reality is. But I think this the hardest emotionally, the hardest work that I do is working with women who are committed to staying with sort of narcissistic men and really enduring ongoing emotional abuse because I can't coach them to leave. They're very clear that they're not going to leave, but it's hard to watch someone kind of perpetually be put down or kind of hurt, can you?

Michele Folan: 18:35

provide some examples of what you have seen in regard to narcissistic behavior.

Lauren Napolitano: 18:41

Well, the primary thing that happens is gaslighting, right? So say, michelle, you and I go out to lunch and you eat all my French fries and I'm like, hey, michelle, get out of my French fries fries. And then you say to me well, those were mine. You're wrong I, they came with my meal. And I start to feel like I'm losing my mind. Right, that's the foundation of like narcissistic abuse, is that when you say to the person, hey, you know, I thought you were going to bring the trash cans in, they spin it on you in a way that is so clever and so powerful that you question your own sanity and over years it really erodes your confidence or your sense of yourself or your identity. It's very controlling.

Michele Folan: 19:28

So if you do have a client who wants to stay with that narcissist or is enduring that narcissistic behavior, I mean, how do you coach that? That's a tough one.

Lauren Napolitano: 19:44

Well, I think part of it is. I would encourage them not to really provoke the narcissist. If you are committed to staying with someone who is at least at a minimum we can agree that they're difficult or moody, then I think it's really important to build up all of the other areas of your life. You need to increase your friend group, you need to do more work that has purpose. You need to travel. You need to have a vibrant personal life that can kind of offset some of the challenges of communicating with someone who can be difficult. Okay.

Michele Folan: 20:18

Do you ever just have to tell a couple or a person that you're? There is no hope for the relationship.

Lauren Napolitano: 20:28

That's a good question. I don't usually have to say that myself, I think usually like again, if you look back to how I was when I was 35, like I was in couples counseling, I was in individual therapy. I don't think it took too long for someone to kind of bring me around to the fact that I was trying to glue something together that was not going to ever work. But it's best for the person to come to that conclusion on their own. Can a narcissist change though? No, no, Okay, a hundred percent no.

Michele Folan: 21:05

Okay. Well, that doesn't give me a lot of hope for the people out there that are dealing with this Shoot, Okay, but I know this comes up a lot of hope for the people out there that are dealing with this Shoot. Okay, but I know this comes up a lot right.

Lauren Napolitano: 21:15

I mean it does oh yeah, but that's part of the work too. I work with a lot of women who are committed to narcissistic men and I know that they are very committed to their marriage, so I don't try to dissuade them. And I know that they are very committed to their marriage, so I don't try to dissuade them, but I really try to help keep them from trying to change this person or hoping that this time they'll get through to them or this time they'll come around. It's like, well, no, just let's accept that person for the way that they are, but let's not make excuses for the other areas of your life that you are neglecting that could also give you purpose and meaning and joy.

Michele Folan: 21:53

Okay, so it's, it's kind of like living separately together in a way.

Lauren Napolitano: 22:00

Well, I like to think of it more as, like radical acceptance. Like, if you're committed to staying with this person, that's no judgment, that's great, but you have to really accept them for who they are, rather than using all of this lovely energy and life force to try to get blood from a stone. Yeah, like, just accept this person but build joy and support in other areas, because it's out there, right.

Michele Folan: 22:28

Yeah, and but you know, I do have to call this out and I oftentimes think that what others see in public or in social situations may not always be the reality behind closed doors. I think there's always that that friend or person that you know that is really good at hiding the reality of their marriage. And then when they do tell people, hey, we're getting divorced, we're separating, whatever the case might be, people sometimes can be really surprised.

Lauren Napolitano: 23:07

Do you ever see that Well, yeah, of course, but again, but again. It's one of those things like, as the marriage is circling the drain, there's so much shame and denial and sort of optimism, like maybe this time we'll pull this out and it'll be great, but people don't disclose how hard it is until it's over?

Michele Folan: 23:29

When do you think it's truly time to move on, like when? When you say you know what my recommendation is for you to to leave, get out of this situation.

Lauren Napolitano: 23:41

I think I think what happens for a lot of people and again I can only speak in my first marriage there were like so many things where I was asking for my husband at the time to connect and one thing that came up which seems so ridiculous, but you know, I was 35, he wouldn't wear his wedding ring and I kept saying to him it hurts my feelings that you won't wear your wedding ring, but he just wouldn't. And at some point I had to realize, but he just wouldn't. And at some point I had to realize that's the answer. Like, right, he's not saying I refuse to wear it, but his behavior was speaking volumes, right. Like I think at some point you really have to look at how is this person treating you behaviorally? Not like, are they talking a slick game, but how are they really making you feel? And if it's consistently, you feel dejected, depleted, demoralized, humiliated, et cetera. There's your answer, right.

Michele Folan: 24:38

Yeah, you know this brings up another question. So I had this conversation again with my friend who I had the phone chat with, and there's this, the quandary right, do you stay together for the kids and then when the kids are in their twenties, they're out of the house? Then you, you make that jump, or do you do what maybe you did? 35 kids are still young. You know you still have your whole life ahead of you, but you know you're going to be raising these kids as a single parent or co-parenting, and I know it's a very personal choice, but in your experience or your opinion, what do you think is best?

Lauren Napolitano: 25:26

I don't think it's a matter of what's best. I think it's a matter of how toxic the marriage is. If the marriage is super toxic, like my first marriage, I had to get out of there. I mean it just. It was going to implode any minute, so like I ejected myself. But it was a. It was a burning house already, Whereas I think people who can luckily kind of hold on until their kids are older, Typically things aren't toxic. They're just maybe disconnected and so it more has like a evaporating intimacy or an evaporating warmth. So they're just, they're two different types of marriages, Okay.

Michele Folan: 26:06

All right, you know I hate to ask this question, but when things are getting really nasty and dirty and one of the spouses is pulling the kids in and, you know, maybe the kids are siding with one over the other, can you walk us through how you deal with that when you're in a therapy situation?

Lauren Napolitano: 26:31

Well, I think the first step is just to normalize it, like if you are in fact divorcing someone who is narcissistic or, at a minimum, difficult, you can expect what's called like a smear campaign, like that person is going to smear you to all of your friends and all of your kids and what have you, and that is sort of an expectable phase. But truthfully, after the smear campaign, which is incredibly hurtful and painful to tolerate, typically people then can sort of make their own opinions. So even when your kids are alienated at the start or they get very swept up in what the lies that are being told about you, usually eventually people kind of calm down and can see the situation in a more balanced manner, but it is very hard to tolerate, for sure. Okay.

Michele Folan: 27:21

So can you provide a sense of how you work with clients? I mean, I'm certain that you see clients in person. Do you ever do remote? Oh sure, how does that usually work for you?

Lauren Napolitano: 27:34

I prefer to see people in person, but I will say, since the pandemic, 90% of my clients are virtual. Oh, you're kidding, because that's just the way of the world. Yeah, I mean, people want to kind of fit in an appointment on their lunch break, which I appreciate.

Michele Folan: 27:50

Do people ever bring their kids in? Do they ever make it part of the group chat?

Lauren Napolitano: 27:55

No, I don't want to do that. I feel like that's for a different specialist, that's not for me.

Michele Folan: 28:03

I didn't know People bringing in their 22-year-old kids. You know, just like let's have a family chat. I didn't know if that was ever something that people do. But I don't know, I'm sure it is but not on my watch. Now that I think about that, that could be really bad. Do you have any client success stories you'd want to share?

Lauren Napolitano: 28:24

I mean, I think most marriages who are committed to sticking in couples therapy tend to really improve. Right, I mean, it's, it's, it's sort of like it's. It's a silly analogy, but like if you join a gym but you never go right, not much is going to change. But if you join a gym and you really work at fitness and health, your fitness and your health are going to improve. The same is true with marriage, like if you're both working the program, it's going to improve.

Michele Folan: 28:54

Okay. So before we wrap this up, I want to ask you, and I ask all my guests this what is one of your vitally important pillars of self-care? How does Lauren Napolitano take care of herself?

Lauren Napolitano: 29:10

That is such a good question. It's funny because most of my clientele is virtual. The one thing that I feel like is so important for me every day is group fitness classes, because it's so in-person, right, there's so many people and you have the rush of like endorphins, but also like a sense of community. It's an antidote to being virtual, you know and we don't talk about that enough.

Michele Folan: 29:38

But that sense of community, particularly as we get into midlife, having networks and connections and you know some of those people can become some of your greatest friends, you know, because you know each other on a different level. So I think that's a great tip that, yeah, we just don't bring up enough. On this show we talk a lot about getting good sleep and lifting heavy weights and, you know, meditation, but community is a really good one. Yeah, for sure. Lauren Napolitano, how can listeners find you?

Lauren Napolitano: 30:17

Well, my website is my name. It's laurennapolitanocom. Or I'm on Instagram at laurennapolitanosyd, which is P-S-Y-D, but those two places.

Michele Folan: 30:30

I will put that in the show notes. Appreciate you being here today. Thank you, lauren. Thanks Michelle. Follow Asking for a Friend on social media outlets and provide a review and share this show wherever you get your podcasts. Reviews and sharing help us grow.